So I'm making a thread of all the fights that I wish existed and I would like members to contribute to this thread to see if they know if they do exist or if they don't. I've seen on this site some back and forth on whether some of these fights exist. So I'll list em out—lemme know your thoughts and if there's some that you'd like to add to just to have some discussion.
Nicole vs Ingrid (final fight)
I'm listing this one out because I've been over to the new DWW site and bought all the Nicole vs Ingrid fights but I cannot find the fight that Nicole loses and quits fighting all together because Ingrind basically pounded her into the mat after a emotional back and forth. I read on here that that's what happened but no one is ever able to answer which fight it is and what movie it's on. So I can only imagine it's not real. The last fight at dww that they have right now between Nicole and Ingrid is where Ingrid loses and Nicole mocks her for losing; so that can't be it.
Michelle vs Andi 2
I'm putting this on here because I'm 99% positive it never happened. But I don't think I need to explain why I think it should've happened. It's literally a fight based on one of the greatest Catfights of all time. Where both girls are scrappy, bigger, proud, and undefeated. One loses because she got winded/sick but wants a rematch. That's a rematch we never got but I'm sure all of us would've loved to see it.
Rage vs Zoe 2
I mean I saw this listed and noted as an upcoming match from fight pulse. I immediately bought the first one because of how it was billed: two women, one undefeated the other the strong young upcomer who learned a lot and now wants to fight the queen. I can't tell you how awesome sexy that type of hype is around Catfights. Yet I don't think we ever got round 2. Not that I think anything would change from the first match I do have to wonder if after their loss the one woman just didn't want to fight the other girl anymore because of fear or knowing she can't win. That's what it seemed like.
Maryanne vs Vira 2
I think not many of you on here are aware of how Carolina Catfights built this match which was Vira had to go fight Sia in order to get to Maryanne. I'm aware this is all scripted but ya know the cool thing about CC (at least their earlier stuff) was their girls could make it seem like it wasn't. So then later on in their catalogue Tabitha went up to Viras apartment and actually wrestled her competitively. Later on Maryanne had a scripted match with Tabitha in what looks like Viras place. Which make me wonder why didn't Vira have a competitive match against Maryanne there. I don't believe it exists because I don't think Maryanne did competitive wrestling but I mean if it did it would be there.
Heidi vs Jen, Jemma, Gia, or Brooke
Recently mentioned in another thread; and I'm fairly sure these do not exist. But I would like to know Heidi's backstory more because it's apparent that pairing here against Savannah, Rachel Steele, Alexus, and Treena that only 1 of those fights was competitive and close until the end (Alexus fight) but I'm not sure why Bob didn't try to get Heidi to fight one of those fighters above because that would've really tested her strength. Those above were actually scrappy cat fighters who fought not only for the pay but to win. Treena was at the end of her career when she fought Heidi. I believe Savannah only had 1 fight before and it was draw with Gia. Rachel's fighting career always involved her being a jobber. Alexus was the only real fighter there and to my knowledge she only had 2 fights prior and one was a very brief match where her opponent quit after realizing how rough it was. (She squashed Tabitha in a full length fight)
Pornstar competitive fights
Now I know these don't exist (or at least I don't think they do) but there were for a little while when the main stars of DT were venturing into competitive wrestling. Sinn, Cali, Kymberly Jane, Erica, Princezz, and Celeste were doing competitive matches for DT (very short lived) and I know Nicole Oring actually did real wrestling and some real Catfights for some companies but not a lot. I'd really love to see more from these ladies but I think most of them did not like the scene because there's just not much to it. I think the actual violence wasn't something they enjoyed; which is completely their right to feel that way and I respect it. But I wish there was more. I'm glad now Tilly Sahyre, Jolene Hexx, and Gia Love are all in the fighting scene which involves actual fights but I wish from 2004-2012 that there was still this scene to exist for the models who came before them. Man imagine is Sinn and Mutiny actually had a real fight like Tilly puts on? That'd be awesome.
I have a lot more that I wish existed like:
I'd love for more toon fights without the Rob Zombie Parody song.
Imagine same animation level akin to Haunted World of Superbeasto but the setting revolves around a heroine who's fighting her way up in the 145 LB apartment catfight circuit?
I'd also love a movie to be based around a stripper who's in a competitive mud/oil wrestling circuit that didn't devolve into an orgy but actually looked competitive and where the stakes are real.
Anyways that's just my thoughts. I've been a fan of Catfights and fem wrestling my entire adult life. I'm insanely turned on by naked/thong women's wrestling. I kinda find that super competitive matches and actual competitions (UFC) aren't really turn ons. But mud/oil/apartment wrestling competitive fights are awesome.
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Heidi vs Jen, Jemma, Gia, or Brooke
Recently mentioned in another thread; and I'm fairly sure these do not exist. But I would like to know Heidi's backstory more because it's apparent that pairing here against Savannah, Rachel Steele, Alexus, and Treena that only 1 of those fights was competitive and close until the end (Alexus fight) but I'm not sure why Bob didn't try to get Heidi to fight one of those fighters above because that would've really tested her strength. Those above were actually scrappy cat fighters who fought not only for the pay but to win. Treena was at the end of her career when she fought Heidi. I believe Savannah only had 1 fight before and it was draw with Gia. Rachel's fighting career always involved her being a jobber. Alexus was the only real fighter there and to my knowledge she only had 2 fights prior and one was a very brief match where her opponent quit after realizing how rough it was. (She squashed Tabitha in a full length fight)
I kinda find that super competitive matches and actual competitions (UFC) aren't really turn ons. But mud/oil/apartment wrestling competitive fights are awesome.
Anyone know what happened to Heidi? Her accent sounded German so I'm wondering if maybe she went back there. I never saw here anywhere else after ECNWC. She was tough as nails, but like you mentioned she didn't have much of a competition and her fight against Treena was when Treena was much older. My dream ECNWC match up would have been Heidi vs Brooke or Heidi vs Wildcat Kelli. I'm pretty sure Kelli would have beaten her with her dominating wrestling skills, but a fight against Brooke would've been an absolute blast. Two tall and tough women and I can't see either one giving up to the other.
I also agree with you on UFC. I've never been a fan, mainly because the women have their hair braided(no hair pulling) and most of them look too manly(body type) for my liking. Lingerie fighting championship was a great idea, but I just can't get into it since it's scripted. If they just let them fight for real with no head shots, I would honestly order every PPV.
I am fascinated by the idea of stuff sitting in California Wildcats vault, since "Trish" passed a few years ago - there are references to "unreleased" fights, in some of their "themed" productions, including a catfight/sexfight between Anita Cannibal and Johnni Black, a catfight between Deja and Chantel, a wrestling match/sexfight between "Teala" and Stacy Burke...but the one I am most curious about is another match between Dyanna Lauren and Tori Sinclair; they were featured in "Cathouse Catfight", and both were in "No Frills 3" and "No Frills 4", but they didn't wrestle each other; which seemed odd, as those films had sort of a round-robin going on; would love to know if that match exists and just never made it onto a released video!
Quote from: shotgun6 on March 29, 2021, 07:54:05 PM
I am fascinated by the idea of stuff sitting in California Wildcats vault, since "Trish" passed a few years ago - there are references to "unreleased" fights, in some of their "themed" productions, including a catfight/sexfight between Anita Cannibal and Johnni Black, a catfight between Deja and Chantel, a wrestling match/sexfight between "Teala" and Stacy Burke...but the one I am most curious about is another match between Dyanna Lauren and Tori Sinclair; they were featured in "Cathouse Catfight", and both were in "No Frills 3" and "No Frills 4", but they didn't wrestle each other; which seemed odd, as those films had sort of a round-robin going on; would love to know if that match exists and just never made it onto a released video!
Pretty sure Rockin Roxanne has a few of the unreleased matches from Video Sports but their credit card system keeps me away.
I am positive that Venus and Sandra actually had a wrestling match. But I'm willing to bet that Venus lost against her. California Wildcats was a great company that had the formula right from the early 90s and late 80s but eventually just changed into another lesbian sexfight outlet.
Quote from: Mikebt on March 29, 2021, 07:50:01 PM
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Heidi vs Jen, Jemma, Gia, or Brooke
Recently mentioned in another thread; and I'm fairly sure these do not exist. But I would like to know Heidi's backstory more because it's apparent that pairing here against Savannah, Rachel Steele, Alexus, and Treena that only 1 of those fights was competitive and close until the end (Alexus fight) but I'm not sure why Bob didn't try to get Heidi to fight one of those fighters above because that would've really tested her strength. Those above were actually scrappy cat fighters who fought not only for the pay but to win. Treena was at the end of her career when she fought Heidi. I believe Savannah only had 1 fight before and it was draw with Gia. Rachel's fighting career always involved her being a jobber. Alexus was the only real fighter there and to my knowledge she only had 2 fights prior and one was a very brief match where her opponent quit after realizing how rough it was. (She squashed Tabitha in a full length fight)
I kinda find that super competitive matches and actual competitions (UFC) aren't really turn ons. But mud/oil/apartment wrestling competitive fights are awesome.
Anyone know what happened to Heidi? Her accent sounded German so I'm wondering if maybe she went back there. I never saw here anywhere else after ECNWC. She was tough as nails, but like you mentioned she didn't have much of a competition and her fight against Treena was when Treena was much older. My dream ECNWC match up would have been Heidi vs Brooke or Heidi vs Wildcat Kelli. I'm pretty sure Kelli would have beaten her with her dominating wrestling skills, but a fight against Brooke would've been an absolute blast. Two tall and tough women and I can't see either one giving up to the other.
I also agree with you on UFC. I've never been a fan, mainly because the women have their hair braided(no hair pulling) and most of them look too manly(body type) for my liking. Lingerie fighting championship was a great idea, but I just can't get into it since it's scripted. If they just let them fight for real with no head shots, I would honestly order every PPV.
I like Kelli Wildcat but her strength was never her wrestling skills. Hurricane Havana destroyed her in a wrestling match and this was before she was older it was when she was younger and in better shape.
I'd hate to say it but Kellis strength isn't her talent but it's her size, weight, and her ability to inflict pain on her opponents while not having them get to an advantage. I've watched 4 Kelli fights recently Wildcats, and ECNWC. In all 4 of those fights Kelli basically lays on top of her opponents and just abuses their tits. They're not strong enough to flip her off or do they have the skill to understand how to do that.
Then compare that with her match against Hurricane Havana and she basically can get Kelli off of her in an instant and then force her into a hold where she can't inflict strikes and she was pretty much stuck.
But I agree against Heidi she would win, but mainly I think because of her size and her willingness to take damage but also her strength in dishing it out.
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 08:11:34 PM
I like Kelli Wildcat but her strength was never her wrestling skills. Hurricane Havana destroyed her in a wrestling match and this was before she was older it was when she was younger and in better shape.
I'd hate to say it but Kellis strength isn't her talent but it's her size, weight, and her ability to inflict pain on her opponents while not having them get to an advantage. I've watched 4 Kelli fights recently Wildcats, and ECNWC. In all 4 of those fights Kelli basically lays on top of her opponents and just abuses their tits. They're not strong enough to flip her off or do they have the skill to understand how to do that.
Then compare that with her match against Hurricane Havana and she basically can get Kelli off of her in an instant and then force her into a hold where she can't inflict strikes and she was pretty much stuck.
But I agree against Heidi she would win, but mainly I think because of her size and her willingness to take damage but also her strength in dishing it out.
Agreed, in her only fight at ECNWC she pretty much suffocated Sarah after getting on top of her. I've never seen the Hurricane Havana match, is it available anywhere? Would love to see her meet her match.
Quote from: Mikebt on March 29, 2021, 09:22:45 PM
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 08:11:34 PM
I like Kelli Wildcat but her strength was never her wrestling skills. Hurricane Havana destroyed her in a wrestling match and this was before she was older it was when she was younger and in better shape.
I'd hate to say it but Kellis strength isn't her talent but it's her size, weight, and her ability to inflict pain on her opponents while not having them get to an advantage. I've watched 4 Kelli fights recently Wildcats, and ECNWC. In all 4 of those fights Kelli basically lays on top of her opponents and just abuses their tits. They're not strong enough to flip her off or do they have the skill to understand how to do that.
Then compare that with her match against Hurricane Havana and she basically can get Kelli off of her in an instant and then force her into a hold where she can't inflict strikes and she was pretty much stuck.
But I agree against Heidi she would win, but mainly I think because of her size and her willingness to take damage but also her strength in dishing it out.
Agreed, in her only fight at ECNWC she pretty much suffocated Sarah after getting on top of her. I've never seen the Hurricane Havana match, is it available anywhere? Would love to see her meet her match.
I saw it years ago—but I don't know the studio. I think it maybe Fighting Wildcats. They did it before an audience and I remember Hurricane had to change bikinis during it.
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Michelle vs Andi 2
I'm putting this on here because I'm 99% positive it never happened. But I don't think I need to explain why I think it should've happened. It's literally a fight based on one of the greatest Catfights of all time. Where both girls are scrappy, bigger, proud, and undefeated. One loses because she got winded/sick but wants a rematch. That's a rematch we never got but I'm sure all of us would've loved to see it.
So many guys mention this one as one of their favorites. I hope they realize that it's a work. They aren't really fighting. No one was hurt in this one. They faked it. They did a decent job of selling it, but it's a work nonetheless.
Rich
Quote from: rin753 on March 30, 2021, 02:29:43 AM
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Michelle vs Andi 2
I'm putting this on here because I'm 99% positive it never happened. But I don't think I need to explain why I think it should've happened. It's literally a fight based on one of the greatest Catfights of all time. Where both girls are scrappy, bigger, proud, and undefeated. One loses because she got winded/sick but wants a rematch. That's a rematch we never got but I'm sure all of us would've loved to see it.
So many guys mention this one as one of their favorites. I hope they realize that it's a work. They aren't really fighting. No one was hurt in this one. They faked it. They did a decent job of selling it, but it's a work nonetheless.
Rich
If you go by your definition of real because "no one was hurt" than 90% of the catfights are a work. IMO, a fight belongs in three categories: fantasy=work/predetermined, competitive=real wrestling/fighting but with rules and street=no rules all out brawl. I think Crystal Films had the most of the 3rd category, but it was a mix of the two because once someone gave it was over. I don't remember anyone getting seriously hurt(one fight had a black chick punch and break the others nose), which was probably luck since a lot of them fights had face punching. The Michelle/Andi fight was as competitive as it gets and at the end Michelle was landing punches to the head while she had her in a head lock. I don't know how you fake punching to the back of the head, maybe if it had been a street fight she would've gone for the eyes and punched her in the throat.
Quote from: Mikebt on March 30, 2021, 05:31:53 PM
Quote from: rin753 on March 30, 2021, 02:29:43 AM
Quote from: Videan on March 29, 2021, 07:30:18 PM
Michelle vs Andi 2
I'm putting this on here because I'm 99% positive it never happened. But I don't think I need to explain why I think it should've happened. It's literally a fight based on one of the greatest Catfights of all time. Where both girls are scrappy, bigger, proud, and undefeated. One loses because she got winded/sick but wants a rematch. That's a rematch we never got but I'm sure all of us would've loved to see it.
So many guys mention this one as one of their favorites. I hope they realize that it's a work. They aren't really fighting. No one was hurt in this one. They faked it. They did a decent job of selling it, but it's a work nonetheless.
Rich
If you go by your definition of real because "no one was hurt" than 90% of the catfights are a work. IMO, a fight belongs in three categories: fantasy=work/predetermined, competitive=real wrestling/fighting but with rules and street=no rules all out brawl. I think Crystal Films had the most of the 3rd category, but it was a mix of the two because once someone gave it was over. I don't remember anyone getting seriously hurt(one fight had a black chick punch and break the others nose), which was probably luck since a lot of them fights had face punching. The Michelle/Andi fight was as competitive as it gets and at the end Michelle was landing punches to the head while she had her in a head lock. I don't know how you fake punching to the back of the head, maybe if it had been a street fight she would've gone for the eyes and punched her in the throat.
I was about to say there's no shot that was a scripted faked fight. If it was it was the best acting and sound production on any scripted fight ever.
At the end of the fight both Michelle and Andi were launching blows into each other's heads and you could literally hear the smack of fist on skull. Throughout the fight you could see them panting and visibly trying to hurt one another. I don't think I've ever seen something like that faked. The closest I can think of is Venus vs Sandra in Ring Riot but it wasn't even that close.
I fully agree with Mike in regard to the Andi / Michelle fight. Crystal's combatants agreed to rules prior to their fight, and my guess is that they agreed to open hand punching or slapping, no closed fist. This doesn't mean that the fight was "worked'" It meant that their encounter was most likely going to be a competitive wrestling match with some extras added -- and that's what we got. Contrast that to Mary's fights which were "anything goes" or Michelle's fight against Chaba and you have an outright street fight. Something different.
In regard to someone getting hurt, or submitting out of pain: At least half of the crystal fights were conceded by the woman who simply ran out of gas. Quite often that woman was the better and more aggressive fighter. So, the victor wasn't always the woman who beat the crap out of her opponent; it was the woman who could continue when her opponent was spent.
In any case, my Number One choice for the fight that never happened would be a Michelle vs. Andi rematch -- and topless.
Quote from: Mikebt on March 30, 2021, 05:31:53 PM
If you go by your definition of real because "no one was hurt" than 90% of the catfights are a work.
[/quote]
I know some guys are convinced that Andi/Michelle is a real fight, and I have no problem with you holding to that view. I do disagree with that opinion.
Of course it's senseless to argue about. What I do want to make clear is what I consider fake. Any fight which is not a competition, and the winner is pre-determined is a work. And that is what I see with Andi and Michelle.
But, could I be wrong? Sure. Ask my wife.
Rich
This is a great topic and I enjoy the clarification of the definitions. I have used the simple-sounding philosophy that they are all real,I.e.women met up and performed a catfight. The next topic and what we are discussing here is how competitive was it. It is clear why the Andi-Michelle match is so popular. There is something for everyone. After reading this thread and seeing Rich's last response, I THINK what happened was that there was an agreement that the ladies would act like they hate and want to harm the other and agreed they would land solid shots and provide other evidence giving credence to these acts. There could be a number of rea$ons for this kind of fight.
Rich, can you provide any thoughts on my theory?
Quote from: wiseguyly69 on March 31, 2021, 05:04:22 AM
THINK what happened was that there was an agreement that the ladies would act like they hate and want to harm the other and agreed they would land solid shots and provide other evidence giving credence to these acts. There could be a number of rea$ons for this kind of fight.
Rich, can you provide any thoughts on my theory?
Wise, I watched the thing again tonight. Hadn't seen it at least 10 years. My opinion did not change. They did set a record for rolling around for sure. Lots of escapes and then more rolling and never was anyone in real distress at any time. Don't know what "solid shots" you are talking about. I didn't see any. For amateurs they did a decent job of selling it but the giveaway for me is that I have seen both of these women in real fights and this one was from a completely different planet.
I have absolutely no idea why they faked it (if they did). If I had to guess, I would say it was something along the lines of they were really good friends.
Did I answer your question?
Rich
Yes for sure and I thank you for your nice detailed response. I meant to watch before posting so my facts were straight but I had to choose the opportunity so now I have watched it and I say it is a strenuous roughhousing with missed opportunities, if the intent were to wipe out the opponent. Using Magazine 13 as my source, I find:
1:47:42 a solid backhand by Andi followed by a good slap from Michelle
1:48:20 several solid breast punches by M
1:50::00 good slaps by both but no damage
1:50:45 criminal missed opportunity by Michelle that could have led to an early win
1:51:29 a good face shot by M followed by another missed opportunity to close things out
1:52:22 I noticed Andi looked ripe for the kill. Time to quit the cancer sticks.
1:52:50. M missed yet again with A face down defenseless with M sitting on her
1:54:10 M has A on the couch but wastes time on ineffective body shots
1:55:40 M lands a solid head shot followed by a mutual exciting exchange
1:56:05. Two good hits to the skull and Andi gives
I never noticed any of this before and how one sided it was. I was captivated by their sexiness and the attitudes displayed plus the roughhousing. Perhaps Crystal was trying to showcase Michelle? Both had done excellent hard fights and well, who knows. Anyway I would support Rich's take on this catfight. I like the idea that they were friends. They sure did a.nice job convincing otherwise. Thanks again, Rich!
Quote from: wiseguyly69 on March 31, 2021, 07:32:36 AM
Yes for sure and I thank you for your nice detailed response. I meant to watch before posting so my facts were straight but I had to choose the opportunity so now I have watched it and I say it is a strenuous roughhousing with missed opportunities, if the intent were to wipe out the opponent. Using Magazine 13 as my source, I find:
1:47:42 a solid backhand by Andi followed by a good slap from Michelle
1:48:20 several solid breast punches by M
1:50::00 good slaps by both but no damage
1:50:45 criminal missed opportunity by Michelle that could have led to an early win
1:51:29 a good face shot by M followed by another missed opportunity to close things out
1:52:22 I noticed Andi looked ripe for the kill. Time to quit the cancer sticks.
1:52:50. M missed yet again with A face down defenseless with M sitting on her
1:54:10 M has A on the couch but wastes time on ineffective body shots
1:55:40 M lands a solid head shot followed by a mutual exciting exchange
1:56:05. Two good hits to the skull and Andi gives
I never noticed any of this before and how one sided it was. I was captivated by their sexiness and the attitudes displayed plus the roughhousing. Perhaps Crystal was trying to showcase Michelle? Both had done excellent hard fights and well, who knows. Anyway I would support Rich's take on this catfight. I like the idea that they were friends. They sure did a.nice job convincing otherwise. Thanks again, Rich!
Tonight I went back as well to compare to another fight I own which I know is real—I compared it to SoCal Nancy vs Mary. I think the issue here is what a lot of people are missing is that when the people in question aren't trained fighters most of their attacks on one another are going to be ineffective on one another.
When I was comparing it to Mary vs Nancy I noticed a lot of the same things. The only way I can actually maybe be swayed is there are a few times Michelle had Andi in a position where she could land a few blows that could've gone unanswered but in the heat of the moment I don't think someone who isn't a trained is thinking like that.
Comparing the two fights; both are similar in regards to the girls are bigger. So naturally they tire a lot quicker than say someone who was thinner. Their punches seem to be mostly ineffective with one another. Michelle's attacks in her fight with Andi largely don't do anything until she's able to get her in a headlock at the end and begins raining them down.
In Mary vs Nancy almost all of Mary's punches onto the bigger Nancy do absolutely nothing. It's not until Mary begins to try and hip toss Nancy does anything significant in that fight occur. I guess I just disagree that it was staged in Andi vs Michelle. Unless someone has some kind of insider knowledge here I think this fight actually fits in well with the other fights the 2 women have had at Crystal.
Michelle never really can land her punches against grapplers. She always had to try and mount an opponent from behind or on top before her punches really could impact them because it's clear she had no idea how to make effective connections without throwing haymakers. Compare that to the match she lost against the more slender black woman (not the bigger black woman where she just gritted her way to victory) but Michelle lost because she couldn't handle a woman who could grab her, immobilize her, then begin landing punches against her. The same applies in this fight. Michele is clearly the aggressor throughout the entire match. But her strikes do nothing to Andi because Michele is only able to secure solid mounts against Andi a few times and even then they don't last long because Andi has enough strength to get out of the hold.
Andi on the other hand was never a striker at all. In all of her previous fights at Crystal I think she threw a few punches but they literally had nothing in them. She had no idea how to hit someone. What she could do is use her weight and hips to her advantage as she would constantly try and throw her opponents and collapse on top of them or scissor them into submission. She never actually retired someone because of punches; it was always a combination of she trips them, then drives them to the floor hard, wraps her legs around them and begins slapping or punching them.
I don't think there's even ever any mortal danger as rich points out. I think the only mortal danger fight I ever seen (and it's kinda scary, not a turn on) was the brutal Japanese bikini fights where the girls would punch and basically boot the other girl to the face. Those are mortal danger fights I can think of.
But I don't think this is a work at all. Or at least from rewatching it again it doesn't seem like a work. It looks no different than any of the modern day real fights that the heavier women have today. Again my comparison here is go buy Nancy vs Mary from SoCal and compare the two. The issue here is perhaps there maybe was a rule about closed fist to faces but then again at the end it's pretty clear they're literally punching each other in the head.
Even if that were the case just because you eliminate closed fist punching does that not make a fight real? IIRC Suitefights started blocking scissors for a bit because they would turn fights into European DWW fights which often become very dull. Phat Pharra I'm pretty sure took it a step further and banned ankle locks, and hair pulling for a bit too because it makes the matches boring. (Which surprisingly I actually agree with; if your goal is hard hitting competitive fights, hair pulling, chokes, and ankle locks should be banned) I don't think that makes the matches any less real. A lot of the producers now also have the 2 women agree to to no face punching. I don't think that makes the fight any less real. I mean unless your standard for real vs faked is comparing it to a street fight like the one stripper fight in the locker room, the one in the parking lot.
Then that would meet the definition. Scripted to me implies there's a predetermined outcome. I just can't see that here. Especially when you compare Andi's other matches considering her goal was basically do what wildcat Kelli does and use her weight to basically immobilize her opponents then just use catfighting tactics to win. But in this case Michelle was stronger and more fit than Andi was and that shows because Andi gets gassed midway through the fight. She was expecting the same type of deal she had with the short haired woman where she could impose her weight on Michele but Michele had enough strength to throw her off and even overpower her.
Also I mean I think I should've rephrased my initial statement that it was even; it was even with regards to the fact that no one got dominated like we see in so many fights. It's clear Michele is winning and if there were rounds and scoring there's no doubt she'd be ahead in points, but at no point did I think Andi was getting absolutely schooled like a bunch of other fights.
Another Crystal fight I think that's comparable here is Rain vs Misty(?) in the fight you have 2 clear novices who really don't know what to do or how to throw anything. It's not until the end when one girl clearly couldn't win via shit talk and some slapping that her opponent just flipped her on her back and started slapping her. Amateur controlled street fighting is what we're talking about here so naturally there's gonna be some rules.
I think the biggest comparison here is while this isn't like the Queen of the Hood series from way back in the early 2000's this isn't Joan Wise either where there's rolling around, looks real, but ultimately isn't. I mean by these definitions it seems to me ECNWC should be regarded as staged too. There's no mortal danger in any of those fights but none of them to my knowledge are scripted.
Monica vs Mia has rules and the girls actually don't really know how to throw slaps or punches but it can appear scripted but that's because the only thing they're trying to do is stretch and hair pull to victory. Tracey vs Traja (I forget her name lol) is the same deal neither girl actually slaps or goes for privates but in the end just puts the loser in a pin hold and stretches her to submission.
Savannah vs Tia has next to no punching allowed (I'm guessing no punching) but it's clear it's a real fight as they hair pull and body slam each other. All of Jemmas fights don't have face punching or mortally wounding their opponents yet all are very much real fights.
I kind of don't understand the mortally wounding bit as the definition of what determines a real fight vs a scripted fight here. Because that would imply fights we know to be not scripted through interviews with the producers and women then suddenly become fake? Underground Girlfight is scripted matches? I think there's rules with a few and I suspect the matches with Bambi, and Kink are scripted but there's fights with Komodo that are not scripted in the least bit.
Again I guess this all seems to be dancing around the notion that some are implying they have insider knowledge to the producer or the fighters that would indicate there was an agreement and discussion of who would win before hand; which would be news to I think a lot of people here, because otherwise I'm not sure how you can make that claim given all the fights prior and when comparing matches of women of similar size look almost indistinguishable.
Quote from: Videan on March 31, 2021, 10:33:32 AM
In Mary vs Nancy almost all of Mary's punches onto the bigger Nancy do absolutely nothing. It's not until Mary begins to try and hip toss Nancy does anything significant in that fight occur. I guess I just disagree that it was staged in Andi vs Michelle. Unless someone has some kind of insider knowledge here I think this fight actually fits in well with the other fights the 2 women have had at Crystal.
Michelle never really can land her punches against grapplers. She always had to try and mount an opponent from behind or on top before her punches really could impact them because it's clear she had no idea how to make effective connections without throwing haymakers. Compare that to the match she lost against the more slender black woman (not the bigger black woman where she just gritted her way to victory) but Michelle lost because she couldn't handle a woman who could grab her, immobilize her, then begin landing punches against her. The same applies in this fight. Michele is clearly the aggressor throughout the entire match. But her strikes do nothing to Andi because Michele is only able to secure solid mounts against Andi a few times and even then they don't last long because Andi has enough strength to get out of the hold.
Nancy was one of those girls that can take a lot of punishment, especially punches to the head. She was only in trouble when like you said Mary hip tossed her and once on her stomach she started punching her in the back of the head(which was against the rules even at SoCal and she was told to stop). On the other hand, when Mary fought Luz, not even a minute in to the fight she connects with an uppercut to the face and takes her down with a bloody nose. So it depends on the fighter, but Mary has strong punches that would take down most women.
As far as Michelle goes, she proved how well she can take punches in her fight against Chaba. At the start of that fight, the bigger Chaba went all out boxing(closed fists and all) connecting with many shots and Michelle was still able to recover and get her on the ground. After watching that, I really don't think Andi could have hurt Michelle. But like you said, Andi knew what she was doing when on the ground so Michelle couldn't just out power her and end it quickly.
Latania vs Cathy was a CF fight with a dominating finish. It was a one sided fight where Latania was obviously someone that had been in many fights and when her punches landed it was over. Cathy got a bloody nose and gave up right away. I don't remember seeing Latania in other fights, but I would've loved to see her try the same street boxing tactic against someone stronger like Michelle.
I think there was more rules when she fought Andi. I don't think it was like the other Crystal fights particularly against Chaba. I'm fairly sure Chaba actually welcomed the boxing between the two but found out that again Michelle's endurance was not something to forget about.
It was when Michelle was able to mount Chaba that it was all over because Michelle was really good at delivering blows from a mounted position. Andi found that out and Chaba found that out too. But Michelle didn't always win she lost to Monique. But I forget how she lost tbh. I may have to go look in my old HD to see if I have it still if not I'll have to scoop it next month.
If I'm not mistake. I think she lost because Monique was lanky and strong and could basically pinpoint her blows while being able to always secure a better grappling position. A general theme Im noticing with Michelle was she was never really comfortable grappling with others. She only could try and go to a mounted position then begin punching or she'd try to stand up again.
I'm also a firm believer that if Andi fought Michelle again I'd think Andi would win if she knew what she was getting into because I don't think she would've wasted so much energy trying to keep her pinned. I'm saying that because in the last moments of the fight just before Michelle took Andi to the carpet with the headlock and punches Andi was able to get off the couch and secure multiple mounts on Michelle and you could tell Michelle was running on fumes. Had Andi been able to land a few mean blows to her head in those instances while pinning her or securing a scissors or facesit pin Michelle I don't think could've escaped. But Andi was way too gassed at that moment so when Michelle threw a weak buck Andi fell off because she had no strength left it looked like. Then she headlocked her and the two start exchanging head punches.