Doing a search for "hairpulling" on this site brings up quite a few pages regarding hairpulling during fights. But I want to solicit opinions on this subject from a different perspective.
After looking at dozens, if not hundreds of actual catfight clips on the net, in many instances the spectators, both boys and girls, chastise the fighters for pulling each other's hair. You'll hear comments like it's "pussy" to pull hair, or the fights are frequently broken up if the girls resort to pulling hair. You hear spectators encouraging the fighters to throw hands, punch, or knee their opponent, but rarely do you hear any spectators encourage pulling hair.
In my opinion, seeing two girls stand toe-to-toe and trade punches, with no hairpulling, or ground fighting, is not much different than seeing two guys fight. I know it's the 21st century, and women are doing most everything that men do, and that's a good thing. But girls are still girls, and I believe that when two girls fight, they should be allowed to fight like girls. Maybe I'm just old school, but when girls pull each other's hair, that's one of the things I find fascinating about girl fights.
I'd like to hear from other members as to their thoughts on this. And I encourage the girls who read these posts to weigh in on this subject. Girls, if you've ever witnessed a fight, did you encourage or discourage hairpulling? If you've ever fought another girl, did you pull hair?
Thanks for you input.
A fistfight or wrestling is sexy to me anyway, and hair pulling is also sexy - with or without it works for me.
Do wahtever you can to win! Hair is something I always go straight for!
Quote from: CFsupporter on February 22, 2014, 04:08:31 PM
To me, it is not a catfight without hairpulling. I feel it is an innate fighting maneuver and tactic women employ to gain control and inflict pain on their opponent.
CFsupporter is definitely right: NO hairpulling, NO catfight. It is the most feminine way to fight and the sexiest by far.
Important for all producers: No braided hair in your posed or real catfights; no women with short hair. I don't look for
wrestling or boxing; catfighting is different and needs hairpulling all the time.
CF supporter, when you said that pulling hair is an "innate" part of a girl fight, you really echoed a thought I've had for a long time. And it's one of the main reasons I brought this topic up in the first place.
If you search the web for actual girl fight vids, in almost every fight, the first thing the girls usually go for is each other's hair. And this is true regardless of which country the girls are from, or the ages of the fighters. It's almost as if it's instinctive. Even when the girls are being loudly discouraged from pulling hair, they usually resort to it sooner or later, even if it's only to get a good grip on their opponent to throw a punch.
And I also agree with gmenn, if there's no hairpulling, it's really not a catfight.
Something else that really bugs me about some of the crowds watching girls fight, is the tendency to break the fight up if the girls go to the ground. It's not as often as I hear someone in the crowd whining about pulling hair, but it's often enough to be annoying. Like hairpulling, seeing two girls fight on the ground, rolling around, legs entangled, is a very exciting part of the fight. Why else would it be called a "catfight?"
Anyway, thanks for all the input. I look forward to more opinions in the days ahead.
if I want to see a catfight, hairpulling is strongly recommended in my opinion. love to see the fighters panting and grunting whilst pulling hair. also gives ones the opportunity to catch a glimpse of their painstriken faces. so, thats a catfight: hairpulling and slapping
I couldn't resist putting my two cents in. Its been a couple of years since my last fight where I was defending myself. Growing up my brother taught me how to fight. He taught me how to make a fist with my thumb on the outside and the importance of not turning my head or back on someone. He taught me how to throw different punches and how to move to keep from getting hit. He also taught me some moves if I was attacked and grabbed from behind. He also told me if a guy attacked to gouge his eyes, punch for the throat and stomp on their feet. He never taught me anything about pulling hair. Anyway, in situations where I was given no choice but to fight against a couple of younger inebriated gals, my intention was not to give onlookers a show. My attention was to make the other gal stop coming at me. In these situations I used my hands as weapons and punched, aiming for the face. One time this bitch did grab for my hair and actually got a hold and I made her let go when I gave her a closed backhand across her face. I put up my fists to let her know I was serious and she backed off. In one situation I came across a gal who seemed to know some boxing technique and this fight lasted longer. She didn't try to pull my hair or grab me. She gave up after I got in some good punches including a solid shot to her nose and she walked away. I didn't start any of these fights, but my goal was to get out of the situation without getting hur and not to entertain people who wanted to watch a hairpulling contest.
I think women / girls like to pull hair . If they do , they certainly should not be discouraged . Instead , they should be encouraged .
Quote from: bobhowardtnusa on March 07, 2014, 05:06:53 PM
sue5159 you are a trained fighter: Fighting only to defend yourself. Your type of fight is to be as violent as possible to end the fight as soon as possible. There is nothing wrong with this but it is not a cat fight.
The OP was asking about real world fights, a point that people seem to have, once again, decided to ignore.
All the comments seem directed at staged or filmed fetish fights. The question was about the observations on actual fight clips seen online. And I can say in a real fight, your concern is not how to fight in a way that someone watching your fight to jerk off can best be pleased. You are trying not get hurt or killed.
And most people are NOT catfight fans, so it makes perfect sense that something that seems as cheap as hairpulling is discouraged in a real fight. The instances you see by experienced fighters are to gain a temporary advantage or to get the other persons steady for a punch. If you are pulling hair for the sake of pulling hair, it is viewed the same way as a hockey fight when the fighters grab each others jerseys: "fights done, please break us up." Same with rolling around on the ground. Real world isn't UFC so rolling on in the dirt usually means both are tired or someone is getting their ass beat on.
Saying women should fight "like women" in a real life fight is as insulting as saying only an Asian should use martial arts so they can "fight like their race " And from my experience, if you lamented to others watching a fight that you wished the women fought in a way you found arousing, you might get a reaction like asking to see a 10 year old in a bikini. When most people watch a fight they are watching a fight between two humans, not a gender based fetish fight. The thrill they get watching it might be the same as watching boxing match or UFC: it is the violence, the competition or the chance to see someone get the hell beat out of them. And they likely think 2 girls pulling hair is like watching paint dry.
My experience is similar to Sue. No one taught me to pull hair or slap or roll around in the dirt in a fight. In fact my brothers likely would have pounded ME if I did that while they watched.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 07, 2014, 08:33:26 PM
Quote from: bobhowardtnusa on March 07, 2014, 05:06:53 PM
sue5159 you are a trained fighter: Fighting only to defend yourself. Your type of fight is to be as violent as possible to end the fight as soon as possible. There is nothing wrong with this but it is not a cat fight.
The OP was asking about real world fights, a point that people seem to have, once again, decided to ignore.
All the comments seem directed at staged or filmed fetish fights. The question was about the observations on actual fight clips seen online. And I can say in a real fight, your concern is not how to fight in a way that someone watching your fight to jerk off can best be pleased. You are trying not get hurt or killed.
And most people are NOT catfight fans, so it makes perfect sense that something that seems as cheap as hairpulling is discouraged in a real fight. The instances you see by experienced fighters are to gain a temporary advantage or to get the other persons steady for a punch. If you are pulling hair for the sake of pulling hair, it is viewed the same way as a hockey fight when the fighters grab each others jerseys: "fights done, please break us up." Same with rolling around on the ground. Real world isn't UFC so rolling on in the dirt usually means both are tired or someone is getting their ass beat on.
Saying women should fight "like women" in a real life fight is as insulting as saying only an Asian should use martial arts so they can "fight like their race " And from my experience, if you lamented to others watching a fight that you wished the women fought in a way you found arousing, you might get a reaction like asking to see a 10 year old in a bikini. When most people watch a fight they are watching a fight between two humans, not a gender based fetish fight. The thrill they get watching it might be the same as watching boxing match or UFC: it is the violence, the competition or the chance to see someone get the hell beat out of them. And they likely think 2 girls pulling hair is like watching paint dry.
My experience is similar to Sue. No one taught me to pull hair or slap or roll around in the dirt in a fight. In fact my brothers likely would have pounded ME if I did that while they watched.
I agree. Everyone fights as he/she can and the only goal is to win. Women are fighting as they can, and for me, any such fight is interesting. I noticed that the "street fights" almost all women and girls use hairpulling. I like it but I realize that in this situation it does not matter.
Hairpulling in the girl fight is so very common. I think that it should not be prohibit for women in combat.
What is MMA I would even be willing to introduce two types of rules in the fighting women. Normal MMA and MMA+hairpulling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-j2PRJIMDA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSlKb-hJyH4
Be organized serious competition in this formula.
Just as there are wrestling freestyle and classic. What do you think. For instance: Is such a fight would be technically inferior or not. Interested arguments for and against. I'm happy to get to know opinion nutmeg78, sue5159 and other women.
Roz,
Here is all the fouls in the UFC rules (which is likely the basis for most serious MMA rulesets) http://www.ufc.ca/discover/sport/rules-and-regulations#15
The question would be: what makes hairpulling the rule that should be thrown out of all those rules? Many of those are based on safety and on perception of MMA NOT being a pair of thugs doing a street brawl. And if the idea is to make women's fighting "more sexy", that is a bit insulting to the fighters. How would the male fighters feel if they were told they needed to do things to get the gay male fanbase? Do some more crotch grinding and face sitting boys. Overall I don't see what hairpulling would add to the sport itself.
Nutmeg, I see your point regarding the sport of women's MMA, and why hairpulling might tend to delegitimize (probably not a real word!) the seriousness of the sport. I also understand your earlier point that most people are not "catfight fans," and that a person (man or woman) engaged in a fight is trying to win and/or defend oneself, not to put on a show.
However, I'd bet that a great majority of the folks looking at this site are catfight fans. I can only speak for myself, but from the posts I've seen throughout this site, I believe that's true.
Personally, I wouldn't give two cents to see two guys duke it out, on the street, or MMA for that matter. But seeing two women engaged in a fight, that's something different. And quite frankly, it's arousing, at least to me. I realize it's the 21st century, and it seems that women and girls, especially high school girls, fight much more often than they did way back when I was in school, but it's still unusual enough that it really tends to draw a crowd. And search the internet for "girl fights, or catfights," and you'll see some news articles, and video footage on the TV news of girls fighting. You don't see that kind of story when two guys get into it, just the girl fights.
I can still remember a girlfriend of a friend of mine talking to him about some girl who was hassling her. My friend told her to smack her, or something to that affect. His girlfriend replied, "nice girls don't get into fights." Back then it was rare to see girls fight, at least in my school. But now it is much more common.
Sorry I've gotten off the point of hairpulling somewhat, but for me, seeing two feminine girls get into a hairpulling, rolling catfight is very exciting, partly because it's still somewhat taboo and rare. I don't mean it as an insult to women, it's just a fact.
As for hairpulling in MMA, the old DWW site used to feature quite a few MMA-style fights between very tough girls, and in a lot of those fights, hairpulling was allowed. It didn't take anything away from the contest, or the seriousness of the fights. Some of the old adds used to point to the fact the girls were wearing "cobra" fingerless gloves, specifically so the girls could pull each other's hair.
Women don't need to be encouraged to pull hair in a fight. They just do it instinctively, even when they are trying not to because of hassle from spectators who want to see them punching the shit out of each other. If that wasn't so, it wouldn't be an issue and this discussion wouldn't be happening.
And why should it be discouraged? It's a great way for women to settle an argument physically without any serious damage to themselves or their opponent/rival. You never see fights between men being interrupted by people telling them to use different tactics in order to hurt each more. They either break it up altogether or leave them to sort it out for themselves. Why should women be treated differently??
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 07, 2014, 08:33:26 PM
The OP was asking about real world fights, a point that people seem to have, once again, decided to ignore.
Including you, by talking about hockey fights, women's boxing and MMA.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 07, 2014, 08:33:26 PM
Same with rolling around on the ground. Real world isn't UFC
Exactly. So why bring it into this discussion?
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 07, 2014, 08:33:26 PM
Saying women should fight "like women" in a real life fight is as insulting as saying only an Asian should use martial arts so they can "fight like their race " And from my experience, if you lamented to others watching a fight that you wished the women fought in a way you found arousing, you might get a reaction like asking to see a 10 year old in a bikini.
The analogy you used there is false. People's ideas about how men and women should behave are based only partly on prejudice, and partly on real physical and psychological differences between the sexes. Racial stereotypes have no basis in reality whatsoever.
And are you saying that people who not aroused by women fighting regard people who are as being akin to paedophiles?
That's what it looks like to me.
Wasteland my post was to provide some context to a common question is I see here : "Why do crowds in real life fights not encourage (insert catfight behavior here) ? " I hope it helped in that
I am not sure why my explanation as to why crowds in the real world may not encourage hairpulling should so offend thee, kafkod. Equally confusing is your preoccupation with the mention of the UFC, hockey or boxing, especially those were mentioned in explanation of how non catfight fans can view a fight between women or men. They just enjoy it for different reasons. If you actually read my post you would have grasped this.
And my comment about the UFC in regards to rolling about on the ground was to point out that in general, the UFC is the only place where ground fighting tends to happen. The rest of the time, its people rolling around looking as though they are dry humping each other or one person sitting on top pounding away on the helpless person below. Hence why it tends to get broken up at that point based on my experience. Also going to the ground is dangerous. Try to fall safely on pavement. Now do it while someone tackled you or has your hair...
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
The analogy you used there is false. People's ideas about how men and women should behave are based only partly on prejudice, and partly on real physical and psychological differences between the sexes. Racial stereotypes have no basis in reality whatsoever.
A stereotype is usually based on an exaggeration of something, an attribution of a characteristic to race or gender that in fact is caused by other factors, or a "fact" that suits the needs of the speaker of such a stereotype. And you don't seem to believe stereotypes exist based on gender, which is incorrect. You claim that women instinctively hairpull and only don't because of those mean crowds telling them not to. I beg to differ since:
1. Women tend to have longer hair and be untrained fighters, thus being more exposed to the hairpulling risk
2. Men who meet this same criteria have also been known to pull hair (and be derided for it) and
3. Men when fighting or attacking women also are known to pull their hair. Watch any depiction of domestic abuse and chances are he will lead her around by her hair.
4. You make a comment that "You never see fights between men being interrupted by people telling them to use different tactics in order to hurt each more. " Do cries of "Kick him in the balls!" ""break his arm!" "Curb stomp him" and "Give him the boots ! " not count as suggesting tactics used to hurt someone more? Granted they may not stop the fight if that doesn't happen but don't kid yourself in thinking men's fights are filled with nice audiences. That or you seem filled with a desire to demonize the audiences that don't encourage hairpulling.
And really if they are untrained slappers/ ineffective punchers, it is likely SAFER to let them just do a stand up fight. Just let them get it out of their system like men do (slap themselves silly as it were ) The chances of someone doing damage becomes luck based. . When you add the hairpulling, more chances of tripping/ tumbling to the ground which is not so safe. Even fighting on grass you could land on a rock, step in a gopher hole or any number of dangerous things. And yes I am assuming a non organized fight here. If you are doing a catfight in your friends basement at a set time, of course the rules set will dictate. (just to cover that angle should someone bring that up )
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
And are you saying that people who not aroused by women fighting regard people who are as being akin to paedophiles?
That's what it looks like to me.
You are correct. And before you fly off the handle I didn't say all people think that. I said you can be looked at the same way since I have seen and heard some strong negative reactions to it. It is a fetish based on women and violence, so don't be shocked if people look at you like someone who would have their wife beaten up for their fix.
One only need look at the tales on this site of some extreme reactions by wives, girlfriends, family and friends to learning someone is a catfight fan. One prevailing image of the catfight fan is that of a hardcore misogynist who gets his thrill from violence towards women and/or the reduction of women to sex objects to fight over him. And if you are a women into it, you are seen as a victim of said violence or someone with anger issues. And I have encountered some who have admitted their love of catfights to their shrink and found suddenly THAT became the thing to be "cured".
In reality, the things I like to see in a "catfight" are very rare in genuine non-professional fights between women/girls.
I admit that seeing body-to-body, breast-to-breast fighting is very arousing, and that includes pulling each other's hair. But such fights are extremely rare in the real world, at least from the hundreds of fights I've seen posted on the net. There have been a few, but they are few and far between.
I'm not an expert on MMA or grappling, but in those venues body-to-body contact is a common part of the sport. Is it because holding your opponent close prevents him/her from applying a hold that might result in a win for them? I don't know. But again, seeing the women in such close contact is what I like about MMA/grappling. I guess it would take a psychiatrist/psychologist to explain the attraction, and I'm neither.
On that note though, I remember seeing an interview with a female psychologist years ago on the subject of girl fights, and why they were so popular, especially involving high school girls. She replied that some aspects of catfighting were not unlike seeing two women making love. She mentioned the close body contact, etc., that made the fights attractive to men. I am looking for that interview, and if I can find it, I will post the link. But it was quite a few years ago, so it's probably long gone.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
And are you saying that people who not aroused by women fighting regard people who are as being akin to paedophiles?
That's what it looks like to me.
You are correct. And before you fly off the handle I didn't say all people think that. I said you can be looked at the same way since I have seen and heard some strong negative reactions to it. It is a fetish based on women and violence, so don't be shocked if people look at you like someone who would have their wife beaten up for their fix.
One only need look at the tales on this site of some extreme reactions by wives, girlfriends, family and friends to learning someone is a catfight fan. One prevailing image of the catfight fan is that of a hardcore misogynist who gets his thrill from violence towards women and/or the reduction of women to sex objects to fight over him. And if you are a women into it, you are seen as a victim of said violence or someone with anger issues. And I have encountered some who have admitted their love of catfights to their shrink and found suddenly THAT became the thing to be "cured".
Hmmm - No. Unfortunately some choose to interpret the fetish as such (i.e. '...based on women and violence') but that's simply NOT what FvsF is about. I'd even go so far as to assert that anyone who enjoys accounts or depictions of violence being done to women is not a FvsF fan. FvsF has never been about violence or REAL fighting. It has always been about what turns men and women on about female combat. It is not the same as male/female UFC and it's not supposed to be. The fact that some nutjob writes a story that features a woman getting her teeth knocked out or her bones broken doesn't prove or predicate that everyone or even most people in the audience find the story sexually arousing or enjoyable. The fact that someone may visit this site and think it's about prostitution doesn't make it fact.
Are strip clubs about prostitution because that's what some women that don't approve of strippers think? Does that 'opinion' now make the men that attend strip clubs the same as guys who are soliciting prostitution? I don't care if someone who visits this board wants to view me as a pedophile - because that visitor is cut from the same cloth of bright shining blistering idiocy as the woman who feels strippers are the same as prostitutes. FvsF and stripping is legal and involves the actions of consenting adults. Pedophilia and most forms of street prostitution are not legal and often do NOT involve the participation of consenting adults.
I completely understand the distinction between a real FvsF fight, a staged FvsF match and a professional MMA match between 2 women. Unless they start fighting in panties, I'm not that interested in women's MMA because I have no sexual interest in any fight where it is the goal and purpose to injure or damage another women. I believe that to be the overall prevailing opinion of most true FvsF fans. I damn sure don't step into the world thinking EVERY Female competition is supposed to be about what I find sexually arousing (but I can dream ;-). The confusion arrives in the form of many who attend this forum who may not be true FvsF fans and find enjoyment and perhaps sexual arousal over the thought of one human being physically damaging another. I would never 'seriously' suggest that women's MMA change their rules to attend to what I find erotic about FvsF - because these women aren't competing for that purpose!! Every FvsF scenario is not there for the sole purpose of my arousal in the very same way that every story and depiction of FvsF on this board is not necessarily a representation of what FvsF fans find arousing. However, for my purpose of conversing about FvsF in this forum the following holds true:
- I'm only interested in women's MMA, women's combat or 'real' FvsF if there is content that I find sexually arousing and, quite frankly, I don't give a damn whether or not my sexual arousal was the intent of the participants.
- I don't give a rusty ruby red shit whether someone wants to label me as a pervert or a pedophile because of my enjoyment of FvsF. These people are as idiotic and brain deaf as folks who used to label women who wore pants or wanted to run for office or join the work force 'lesbians'. My enjoyment of FvsF is not derogatory. It is NOT a 'perversion' or a 'crime'. It's a fetish and it's mthrfcking LEGAL!
- Now this is just my opinion but any human being that finds themselves sexually aroused at the thought of one human being being physically damaged by another is simply fucked in the head. I don't care what gender they belong to. I like boxing. Men are hurt and physically damaged by boxing, football and many other popular contact sports. However, I am NOT sexually aroused by it.
I'm sorry that some can't draw a distinction between what we (FvsF fans) find sexually arousing with regards to FvsF and the fact that women can be physically injured during FvsF whether it is real, professional or staged. I'm sorry that some can't come to grips with the fact that it is NOT the 'physical damage' that we find arousing. That being said, I completely understand why this distinction is confusing to those of you who may not be FvsF fans but it might be a bit easier if we draw a distinction between those who find FvsF sexually arousing and those who find women being beaten up sexually arousing. If you read that last sentence and think the 2 concepts are one and the same this is the point where you depart from my FvsF reality. Very interesting discussion. Thanks for all the viewpoints!
Cecil,
At the heart there is still physical conflict between women. And if you show the layperson a video of two women slapping each other or pulling each others hair and contend its not violent, you will likely get looks of disbelief. Likewise the very phrase "female combat". Like it or not violent action is linked to the fetish, real or staged.
And I hope you didn't take me as saying these stigmas I mentioned are fact. I have met some FvsF fans that scare the fuck out of me, just as I met some that are completely harmless and well adjusted. And yes I agree, this can be a haven for people more into "women getting beat up" than "women fighting" Sadly this is the image a lot of people seem to have of the fetish. Try telling the general public FvsF fans didn't like Raze. Women fighting, must be in your wheelhouse, right? Anyone following the discussions know "not really", but conceptions are hard to change.
I also had fights in real life which I find distinctly non sexy. I came from a life of violence I have no desire to return to. In fact when I encounter people who press me for details and do get off on it, it makes me uncomfortable. In my opinion, the stuff I did and saw should horrify, not titillate. But end of the day, I have no control over what THEY feel. Much of my writing has violence in it and the assumption is by some that the violence is the attraction for me. It is in fact a means by which I can ride the emotional roller coaster that I enjoy. And its not real. In fact I find it absurdly exaggerated. If some don't like that ride, don't read it. And yes some may get enjoyment from it for a reason that bothers me, but I can't control that and still make it available for all. I know producers also get fan mail that they wish they didn't get or requests for customs that bother them. And really, if they are going to have that kink, I would much rather they filled it by reading something versus going out in real life and harming another living creature.
And like most fandoms there are as many motivations as there are people. Some like the body contact, some the competition, some (like myself) the emotions. None are inherently right or wrong (unless they are illegal). They are right for that person. Might not work for you but there is a lot of material out there. For myself videos leave me cold as opposed to the written word because of the emotional context. And I get much more out of it being an active participant via a roleplay versus reading an account so stories tend to also fall flat for me. In the end, I can't see why everyone's desires can't coexist.
Anyways sorry for the slight threadjack, wasteland. if someone wishes to continue down this discussion and not swerve the thread further feel free to message me.
Nutmeg, please don't be sorry for the "threadjack!" It's all on point, as far as I'm concerned. And I guess it all comes down to real life fighting, or fighting to win (pro or amateur), vs. the sexuality of what I and many others like to see. I am totally disgusted when it comes to domestic violence, or violence against women. There's no excuse for it.
And for anyone out there who actually enjoys seeing women really hurt one another, here's a question for you: would you like seeing your wife/daughter in a violent fight with another woman? I mean where your loved one is actually getting hurt? Guess that's a topic for a separate thread!
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
Cecil,
At the heart there is still physical conflict between women. And if you show the layperson a video of two women slapping each other or pulling each others hair and contend its not violent, you will likely get looks of disbelief.
I'd never show a layperson a video of 2 women slapping each other's faces and pulling hair as an example of FvsF. I don't like face slapping or hair-pulling because I don't find it to be as erotic as close body contact, intertwined legs and breast or crotch grabbing. I don't find anything remotely sexy about 2 women striking each other in the face. Again - I don't believe that people who find this sexually arousing are FvsF fans as much as they are people who have a desire to see women hurt each other. What is remotely erotic about 2 women pulling each other's hair out? Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
And I hope you didn't take me as saying these stigmas I mentioned are fact. I have met some FvsF fans that scare the fuck out of me, just as I met some that are completely harmless and well adjusted. And yes I agree, this can be a haven for people more into "women getting beat up" than "women fighting" Sadly this is the image a lot of people seem to have of the fetish.
I concur.Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
Try telling the general public FvsF fans didn't like Raze. Women fighting, must be in your wheelhouse, right? Anyone following the discussions know "not really", but conceptions are hard to change.
FvsF fans have no reason to solicit acceptance or appeasement from the "general public". Most of the general public gets off on watching 2 smoking hot busty tight-bodied women wrestle in close body contact. That was the entire point of the Miller Light commercial. Women fighting to the death and mutilating each other isn't even in the same orbit as FvsF. Do you see the women in WWE mutilating each other? Hell no. That ignorant BS is simply the fantasy of a warped little boy or a broken man who harbours hatred and resentment towards women. Someone writes a story about beautiful busty women wearing large wedding rings that they use to beat each other's face into a bloody pulp fighting over 'him'? That's not FvsF. That's a sick Jackass who has issues with women. Johnny Fucktard writes a story about begging his wife to dress in a sexy short dress to go to a bar and then, behind her back, orchestrates her beatdown by several other women who end up writing "Whore" on her bare naked backsides in lipstick? That's not FvsF. That's a limp-dicked little bitch (small b out of respect for proper Bitches) of a man who has control and MANipulation issues. It's not sexy. It's not erotic - and FvsF fans have neither need nor necessity to apologize for that sick shit because it's not, and never will be, what we (FvsF fans) ascribe to. Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
It is in fact a means by which I can ride the emotional roller coaster that I enjoy. And its not real. In fact I find it absurdly exaggerated. If some don't like that ride, don't read it. And yes some may get enjoyment from it for a reason that bothers me, but I can't control that and still make it available for all.
I know producers also get fan mail that they wish they didn't get or requests for customs that bother them. And really, if they are going to have that kink, I would much rather they filled it by reading something versus going out in real life and harming another living creature.
There are a lot of sick people out there. While their sickness may be our burden it's certainly not our responsibility. I see people rallying around a writer to cyber-slap him/her on the back in congratulation of the equivalent of cyber-drivel. They've laid out another dosage of Saran-Rap that's stretched out so thin nearly everyone can see through it. These people suck at story telling and their writing contains material that is at best offensive and derogatory and at worst completely boring and without merit. It's not FvsF but others seem (or at least claim) to 'enjoy' it. So the beat goes on. Marty and Tricia (rest her soul) used to tell me about some of the sick twisted requests they'd get from people wanting to see the women slice each other up with knives and other ignorant crap.Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
And like most fandoms there are as many motivations as there are people. Some like the body contact, some the competition, some (like myself) the emotions. None are inherently right or wrong (unless they are illegal). They are right for that person. Might not work for you but there is a lot of material out there. For myself videos leave me cold as opposed to the written word because of the emotional context.
It's interesting that you'd bring that up because I find a certain fascination with a great FvsF story that I don't necessarily get with a FvsF video. It's also one of the reasons I've come to appreciate a lot of FvsF art - even thought I've had to wade through some pretty disgusting crap to find what I like. I still don't like depictions of women being struck in the face or beaten with blood spurting out of their mouths. However, and I'll accept the label of hypocrite for this, I completely enjoy depictions of women being grabbed (preferably) or punched in the breast or crotch. I just don't want to see deep bleeding mutilating scrath marks because that's when it stops being sexy and starts being violent.Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
And I get much more out of it being an active participant via a roleplay versus reading an account so stories tend to also fall flat for me. In the end, I can't see why everyone's desires can't coexist.
Ahh - so that explains the whole 2nd life thing. I never got into that. I suspect I'm more visual. I had a couple of GFs who used to try to make up FvsF stories to get me excited but they were really bad at it and, at that time, I didn't feel comfortable giving them too many pointers about what excited me with regards to FvsFQuote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
Anyways sorry for the slight threadjack, wasteland. if someone wishes to continue down this discussion and not swerve the thread further feel free to message me.
Hah! So you're apologizing for exponentially increasing the interest and IQ of this thread into something that was spot on, intelligent and relevant? I respectfully decline your apology and formally request that you 'threadjack' more often. In a word: "Thanks!!"
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
The analogy you used there is false. People's ideas about how men and women should behave are based only partly on prejudice, and partly on real physical and psychological differences between the sexes. Racial stereotypes have no basis in reality whatsoever.
A stereotype is usually based on an exaggeration of something, an attribution of a characteristic to race or gender that in fact is caused by other factors, or a "fact" that suits the needs of the speaker of such a stereotype. And you don't seem to believe stereotypes exist based on gender, which is incorrect.
You quoted what I wrote. But did you read it first? I did not say that stereotypes based on gender do not exist. I said that they are based partly on prejudice, partly on actual differences between male and female. Read it and see!
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 10:56:53 AM
1. Women tend to have longer hair and be untrained fighters, thus being more exposed to the hairpulling risk
2. Men who meet this same criteria have also been known to pull hair (and be derided for it) and
3. Men when fighting or attacking women also are known to pull their hair. Watch any depiction of domestic abuse and chances are he will lead her around by her hair.
4. You make a comment that "You never see fights between men being interrupted by people telling them to use different tactics in order to hurt each more. " Do cries of "Kick him in the balls!" ""break his arm!" "Curb stomp him" and "Give him the boots ! " not count as suggesting tactics used to hurt someone more? Granted they may not stop the fight if that doesn't happen but don't kid yourself in thinking men's fights are filled with nice audiences. That or you seem filled with a desire to demonize the audiences that don't encourage hairpulling.
I hope you won't be offended if, as a none female person, I use the "W" word again in replying to some of these points. Lol.
Are you saying that, in the USA, men are not allowed to grab or pull each others hair in a street fight either? I didn't actually know that.
I am in the UK. Here, the general concensus of opinion is that there are no rules and no referees in a street fight, whether the fighters are men or women. If your opponent grabs you by the hair, spectators will not interrupt the fight to stop them, you have to deal with it yourself. Same thing with fighting on the ground.
And telling your opponent "Hey, stop being a pussy and let me up." Is not what I would call dealing with it. Where I come from, that would translate as "Ok, I give up. You win."
And I am not saying that women should be required to pull hair when they fight. Only that they should be allowed to do so if they wish. As I said in my previous comment, it's a great way for them to settle an argument without injuring each other in the process. And yes, it does turn me on to see it, while women punching each other in the face has the opposite effect. Like a lot of men, I have a strong aversion to seeing that happen, which is why, though I am a catfight fanatic, I rarely watch women's boxing or MMA.
:)
Quote from: kafkod on March 17, 2014, 04:40:10 AM
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 10:56:53 AM
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
The analogy you used there is false. People's ideas about how men and women should behave are based only partly on prejudice, and partly on real physical and psychological differences between the sexes. Racial stereotypes have no basis in reality whatsoever.
A stereotype is usually based on an exaggeration of something, an attribution of a characteristic to race or gender that in fact is caused by other factors, or a "fact" that suits the needs of the speaker of such a stereotype. And you don't seem to believe stereotypes exist based on gender, which is incorrect.
You quoted what I wrote. But did you read it first? I did not say that stereotypes based on gender do not exist. I said that they are based partly on prejudice, partly on actual differences between male and female. Read it and see!
I did, but I don't think you understand what either of us said :) You didn't even mention the word stereotypes in regard to gender instead using the less offensive "ideas" And really your point seems to be gender stereotypes are somewhat true, racial ones aren't. Mine is both are equally distortions of reality. Why are Asians seen as sneaky? Well they tend to be smaller and more lithe and the epicanthic fold can be seen as looking sneaky or devious. Also the slighter build has them seen as less masculine thus, like women, they are seen as being unable to do direct physical confrontation. So using comparing racial and gender stereotypes are valid. Both take something real (or believed to be real) and blow it out of proportion. And neither are "fact" per se.
Quote from: kafkod on March 17, 2014, 04:40:10 AM
Are you saying that, in the USA, men are not allowed to grab or pull each others hair in a street fight either? I didn't actually know that.
Well no idea about the US but I assumed people watching bar fights tended to be the same worldwide. Here In Canada if we had a street fight with no bar crowd attached to it, it was either a mugging or gang violence. And in that case one is more worried about no knives than no hairpulling.
If they pull hair to the degree of doing nothing but, well yes. If they are going to stand there, both hands in each other hair doing a tug of war, then yes, they will be mocked. If they don't stop from sheer embarrassment their friends likely will break them up. The reason people break up fights at the "nothing happening" stage is because no one wants to be stupid enough to turn their back and get cold cocked. And the thing with being on the ground, well if by chance someone should roll to the feet of their friends, the other person oddly got kicked a lot. And since that tends to escalate things, once it reached the "two bitches rolling around in heat" stage (as one friend called it ) people tended to stand them up. The mentality around here was settle it standing up.
Quote from: kafkod on March 17, 2014, 04:40:10 AM
And I am not saying that women should be required to pull hair when they fight. Only that they should be allowed to do so if they wish. As I said in my previous comment, it's a great way for them to settle an argument without injuring each other in the process. And yes, it does turn me on to see it, while women punching each other in the face has the opposite effect. Like a lot of men, I have a strong aversion to seeing that happen, which is why, though I am a catfight fanatic, I rarely watch women's boxing or MMA.
No you stated we were genetically compelled to pull hair. That we had little choice since it was our instinct (apparently men don't have this same genetic feature). Big difference from being a choice we make from circumstance and/or safety. And as I mentioned the "safety" is highly suspect. I didn't even get into the greater chance of kicking (since your hands are busy), eye gouging and scratching that is much easier when you are that close to someone's face.
And try doing a tug of war with someone using hair. You aren't calmer, you in fact are much more angry since you are in pain the whole time. An odd lesson that: men have an aversion to women getting punched, but are perfectly fine with them in a pain tolerance contest? If you really had concern with our well being, just don't let us fight at all.
Quote from: CecilBDmented on March 15, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
FvsF fans have no reason to solicit acceptance or appeasement from the "general public". Most of the general public gets off on watching 2 smoking hot busty tight-bodied women wrestle in close body contact. That was the entire point of the Miller Light commercial. Women fighting to the death and mutilating each other isn't even in the same orbit as FvsF. Do you see the women in WWE mutilating each other? Hell no. That ignorant BS is simply the fantasy of a warped little boy or a broken man who harbours hatred and resentment towards women. Someone writes a story about beautiful busty women wearing large wedding rings that they use to beat each other's face into a bloody pulp fighting over 'him'? That's not FvsF. That's a sick Jackass who has issues with women. Johnny Fucktard writes a story about begging his wife to dress in a sexy short dress to go to a bar and then, behind her back, orchestrates her beatdown by several other women who end up writing "Whore" on her bare naked backsides in lipstick? That's not FvsF. That's a limp-dicked little bitch (small b out of respect for proper Bitches) of a man who has control and MANipulation issues. It's not sexy. It's not erotic - and FvsF fans have neither need nor necessity to apologize for that sick shit because it's not, and never will be, what we (FvsF fans) ascribe to.
You mention the story about the man who gets his wife beat up and that is always one of my biggest questions with some stuff here:
Why your wife, of all people? Fine if your sexual turn on is to see one woman dominate another, but why is the one being dominated the woman you married? One would think you would be protective of her, not "I want to see you violated by a strap on while I have a circle jerk with the other woman's husband. Love you ! " I could understand if it was like an 80's action movie and she loses the first fight but wins the rematch, so she overcomes adversity. If you hate her that much, divorce her. And I do feel for the guys who try to get their wife or girlfriend interested and have to tread through that minefield of explaining "that is NOT my thing "
The other trend I get twitchy over is the "feminine attractive women gets beat up by masculine female" Nothing wrong with liking jobber matches in general, but when your love is that specific type... It is quite possible you trying to do a rather disturbing mixed match and hoping we don't notice.
Quote from: CecilBDmented on March 15, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
It's interesting that you'd bring that up because I find a certain fascination with a great FvsF story that I don't necessarily get with a FvsF video. It's also one of the reasons I've come to appreciate a lot of FvsF art - even thought I've had to wade through some pretty disgusting crap to find what I like. I still don't like depictions of women being struck in the face or beaten with blood spurting out of their mouths. However, and I'll accept the label of hypocrite for this, I completely enjoy depictions of women being grabbed (preferably) or punched in the breast or crotch. I just don't want to see deep bleeding mutilating scrath marks because that's when it stops being sexy and starts being violent.
Art and stories have the advantage of depicting something that looks realistic in their medium that would look phony if you tried to do it on video or photos. And also for art, sometimes the unrealness of it can make something that would make you cringe in real life palatable. The other advantage is that if need be, you could edit or ask the creator to edit some stuff for you. Meaning if someone did a story you liked except for maybe a bit much violence, you could always either cut and paste and edit it or ask the writer nicely :) Likewise with art.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 13, 2014, 09:22:48 PM
Anyways sorry for the slight threadjack, wasteland. if someone wishes to continue down this discussion and not swerve the thread further feel free to message me.
Quote from: CecilBDmented on March 15, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
Hah! So you're apologizing for exponentially increasing the interest and IQ of this thread into something that was spot on, intelligent and relevant? I respectfully decline your apology and formally request that you 'threadjack' more often. In a word: "Thanks!!"
Thanks:) And thanks to Wasteland for saying the same. I am always worried I might be bringing up logic when no one wants to hear it :)
Quote from: fightfanatic on March 17, 2014, 11:27:58 AM
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
Quote from: kafkod on March 17, 2014, 04:40:10 AM
And I am not saying that women should be required to pull hair when they fight. Only that they should be allowed to do so if they wish. As I said in my previous comment, it's a great way for them to settle an argument without injuring each other in the process. And yes, it does turn me on to see it, while women punching each other in the face has the opposite effect. Like a lot of men, I have a strong aversion to seeing that happen, which is why, though I am a catfight fanatic, I rarely watch women's boxing or MMA.
No you stated we were genetically compelled to pull hair. That we had little choice since it was our instinct (apparently men don't have this same genetic feature).
well in fairness now there is fact that for a lot of women, their hair is very meaningful to them, it's a symbol of beauty, something almost uniquely feminine in culture. So in a personal fight......if you really wanna humiliate someone, that'd be one way to do it, attacking that which means the most to them.
It cannot be the same for a man, because a man's hair is not valued or prized the way a woman's is, not to mention the fact that a woman's hair is generally longer than a man's to begin with lending itself to being pulled more easily either for leverage purposes or for the aforementioned humiliation factor.
So all the commercials of men seeking to reduce their grey hair and increase the hair they have means nothing? I would say men value their hair more than women. It is cited as your source of youth, confidence, virility, the reason other men respect you and women adore you. If humiliation was that much of a factor, men should be clawing at each other's scalps seeking to remove the source of their manliness. Also, since a woman's face is also a source of beauty, should we not then be more prone to punch it?
The practical reasons you do cite I mentioned a few posts ago.
Generally speaking, I have only seen hairpulling used as a means of gaining a headlock as a prelude to punching or getting kneed -an as a means of taking things too the ground.
"Nutmeg, feedback was interesting- neither girl wanting too turn her back, out of fear of being cold cocked"
when women are pulling each others hair in a catfight is what makes the fight sexy and appealing to watch for both men and women i might add
your hair is on your body, so especially in extreme fights where a ko or injury is the means to end the fight it should definitely be allowed. Very few skilled fighters, be them male or female are unable to get an opponent to release their hair in a fight. I always see fake ass bitches who cant really throw down complaining about getting their hair pulled, and just as my man taught me never bitch about a chick pulling your hair, make her sorry she pulled it instead. When someone pulls your hair they are automatically leaving an opening for your to strike their body in some way (typically they expose their ribs and solar plexus when they go for the hair because one arm is extended thus exposing the body, and after a few powerful uppercuts, hooks to the rib cage, liver, and/or solar plexus most girls abandon the hair pull for some much needed defense). So i have no mercy on girls who dont know how to force an opponent to release their hair due to lack of skill. Hair pulling combined with good solid striking is my favorite way to end an opponent in a fight(pull hair while kneeing the face, or while pummeling the face and body with your free hand and watch the immediate damage appear, this is a great technique to force the head and body to the perfect angle for finishing blows if timed right and delivered accurately.
I'd say that if it's a fight that is set up, then it ultimately depends on the rules that the fighters or the organizer(s) of the fight agree upon. I don't feel that there should be any kind of universal rule. On the other hand, if it's spur of the moment kind of thing that involves very active feelings of anger, then it's difficult to say. It would be very easy for the two parties to have a different take on the fight, with one of the women specifically being the aggressor or instigator.
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
You quoted what I wrote. But did you read it first? I did not say that stereotypes based on gender do not exist. I said that they are based partly on prejudice, partly on actual differences between male and female. Read it and see!
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
I did, but I don't think you understand what either of us said :) You didn't even mention the word stereotypes in regard to gender instead using the less offensive "ideas"
Stereotypes ARE ideas, which exist only in the minds of the people who believe them. What else could they be?
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
And really your point seems to be gender stereotypes are somewhat true, racial ones aren't. Mine is both are equally distortions of reality. Why are Asians seen as sneaky?
??? Asians are not seen as sneaky. Not where I come from.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
Well they tend to be smaller and more lithe and the epicanthic fold can be seen as looking sneaky or devious. Also the slighter build has them seen as less masculine thus, like women, they are seen as being unable to do direct physical confrontation.
This is all news to me. Maybe East Asians are percieved in that way by ignorant people in the part of the world you grew up in, but not anywhere else.
The reason? Those particular stereotypes are not based upon emperical evidence or observation of the way East Asians, in fact, behave. They are based purely upon ignorance and prejudice.
The idea, or stereotype, if you prefer, that women pull hair when they fight is different. It is based upon observation, something that people have seen happen over and over again, on my side of the Atlantic as well as yours. Otherwise, as I said before, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
And since that tends to escalate things, once it reached the "two bitches rolling around in heat" stage (as one friend called it ) people tended to stand them up. The mentality around here was settle it standing up.
This is the Freecatfight forum, Meg. Around here, "two bitches rolling around in heat" is what's known as a good, sexy catfight, and is exactly what most of us want to see!
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
No you stated we were genetically compelled to pull hair.
I stated no such thing. Please either substantiate that allegation or retract and aplogise immediately.
Otherwise I will create a cyber-soliciter who will track you down in cyber-fight land and serve you with an imaginary writ for cyber-libel.
;D
Quote from: jppottle on March 17, 2014, 08:52:51 PM
when women are pulling each others hair in a catfight is what makes the fight sexy and appealing to watch for both men and women i might add
I don't find anything sexy about 2 women pulling each others hair unless they're wrapped up in close body-to-body-leg intertwined contact. I have absolutely no idea how 2 women pulling each others hair translates into sexy FvsF. Same with face slapping. Hell - I'd even go so far as to say I don't even find breast or crotch slapping sexy in a FvsF fight - and this is coming from a die hard (NPI) fan of FvsF crotch grabbing and Hands on Titfighting!
Quote from: CecilBDmented on March 18, 2014, 01:30:58 AM
Quote from: jppottle on March 17, 2014, 08:52:51 PM
when women are pulling each others hair in a catfight is what makes the fight sexy and appealing to watch for both men and women i might add
I don't find anything sexy about 2 women pulling each others hair unless they're wrapped up in close body-to-body-leg intertwined contact. I have absolutely no idea how 2 women pulling each others hair translates into sexy FvsF. Same with face slapping. Hell - I'd even go so far as to say I don't even find breast or crotch slapping sexy in a FvsF fight - and this is coming from a die hard (NPI) fan of FvsF crotch grabbing and Hands on Titfighting!
Different strokes for different folks Cecil. But close up body-to-leg intertwined conact does tend to make the hair pulling sexier. Along with everything else, I guess.
Quote from: kafkod on March 18, 2014, 01:21:55 AM
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
No you stated we were genetically compelled to pull hair.
I stated no such thing. Please either substantiate that allegation or retract and aplogise immediately.
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
Women don't need to be encouraged to pull hair in a fight. They just do it instinctively
Here's a hint: I can still see what you wrote here, so pretending you didn't actually say it doesn't work so well. ;D Unless in the Fantasyland UK they don't teach that instinct is caused by nature/genetic makeup. My point has not been that women don't pull hair (despite your efforts to spin it that way, for whatever reason ) but that they pull hair for the reasons men do. Lack of combat skill and there is hair to grab for an advantage. But then how can I expect you when you claim that East Asian stereotypes don`t exist purely because you have not experienced them and they are not based on empirical evidence. Goodness thank for that breakthrough in logic. All this time we have been fighting racism we never thought to argue lack of evidence as a reason why it was foolish. And since racists are nothing but slaves to reasoning..
I am sure this revelation is stunning to those Asians in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe and non Fantasyland UK who experienced these stereotypes and others like it. Stunning to learn that according to kafkod, they are apparently either delusional or liars. In Fantasyland UK where he lives, no one perceives you that way. How nice to know racism has magically become subject to Vulcan -like logic. or if you personally never saw it, it doesn't exist. And all the negative stereotypes still portrayed in the media are accidental or all in their imagination.
Look its one thing to say you never encountered that view, but to then hand wave away the existence of such stereotypes is even worse than the racist views themselves. It is willful ignorance and downplaying of a problem. Look up Asian stereotypes and you will find this stuff very much exists and groups are working to fight it.
Or maybe like a racist using `science`to justify their beliefs you do the same to justify your view that women exist as some catfight sex toy. Japan attacked the US in a sneak attack at Pearl Harbor. Women (like men) pull hair in fights. A racist will claim the former happened because its the nature of Asians just as you claim the latter happens because its a woman`s nature. Both of you need to grow up and join us in the real world. Both have to realise this fundamental truth: Humans are of the same species, be they different genders or ethnicity. Treating a woman as some alien creature compared to a man makes as much sense as treating a black person as an alien creature from a white person.
And your response to the "two bitches in heat" is hilarious when you realize that its was about MEN doing it. But hey we have a men vs men forum so to each their own..
And let me repeat to avoid your confusion: I never said hairpulling by humans doesn't occur in a fight. It occurs for a variety of practical reasons but because Nature,God or horny men willed it, likely isn't one of them. But if that is what you want to believe, have at it.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 18, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
Quote from: kafkod on March 18, 2014, 01:21:55 AM
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 17, 2014, 10:54:59 AM
No you stated we were genetically compelled to pull hair.
I stated no such thing. Please either substantiate that allegation or retract and aplogise immediately.
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
Women don't need to be encouraged to pull hair in a fight. They just do it instinctively
Here's a hint: I can still see what you wrote here, so pretending you didn't actually say it doesn't work so well. ;D Unless in the Fantasyland UK they don't teach that instinct is caused by nature/genetic makeup. My point has not been that women don't pull hair (despite your efforts to spin it that way, for whatever reason ) but that they pull hair for the reasons men do. Lack of combat skill and there is hair to grab for an advantage. But then how can I expect you when you claim that East Asian stereotypes don`t exist purely because you have not experienced them and they are not based on empirical evidence. Goodness thank for that breakthrough in logic. All this time we have been fighting racism we never thought to argue lack of evidence as a reason why it was foolish. And since racists are nothing but slaves to reasoning..
I am sure this revelation is stunning to those Asians in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe and non Fantasyland UK who experienced these stereotypes and others like it. Stunning to learn that according to kafkod, they are apparently either delusional or liars. In Fantasyland UK where he lives, no one perceives you that way. How nice to know racism has magically become subject to Vulcan -like logic. or if you personally never saw it, it doesn't exist. And all the negative stereotypes still portrayed in the media are accidental or all in their imagination.
Look its one thing to say you never encountered that view, but to then hand wave away the existence of such stereotypes is even worse than the racist views themselves. It is willful ignorance and downplaying of a problem. Look up Asian stereotypes and you will find this stuff very much exists and groups are working to fight it.
Or maybe like a racist using `science`to justify their beliefs you do the same to justify your view that women exist as some catfight sex toy. Japan attacked the US in a sneak attack at Pearl Harbor. Women (like men) pull hair in fights. A racist will claim the former happened because its the nature of Asians just as you claim the latter happens because its a woman`s nature. Both of you need to grow up and join us in the real world. Both have to realise this fundamental truth: Humans are of the same species, be they different genders or ethnicity. Treating a woman as some alien creature compared to a man makes as much sense as treating a black person as an alien creature from a white person.
And your response to the "two bitches in heat" is hilarious when you realize that its was about MEN doing it. But hey we have a men vs men forum so to each their own..
And let me repeat to avoid your confusion: I never said hairpulling by humans doesn't occur in a fight. It occurs for a variety of practical reasons but because Nature,God or horny men willed it, likely isn't one of them. But if that is what you want to believe, have at it.
Meg, have you ever heard the saying - When you are in a hole, stop digging?
Quote from: kafkod on March 19, 2014, 01:34:28 AM
Meg, have you ever heard the saying - When you are in a hole, stop digging?
You need that explained to you too? What am I saying of course you have no clue..
You are a cupcake in a debate with a steak knife.
FIN
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 19, 2014, 01:55:52 AM
You are a cupcake in a debate with a steak knife.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but a cyber steak knife I can deal with.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 18, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
No you stated we were genetically compelled to pull hair.
Quote from: kafkod on March 13, 2014, 02:43:55 AM
Women don't need to be encouraged to pull hair in a fight. They just do it instinctively
Saying that somebody does something instinctively is not the same as saying that they are genetically compelled to do it.
For instance, if I said that a footballer was an instinctive player, that would not mean that I thought he was genetically compelled to play football.
If you can't see the difference between those two propositions for yourself, then there isn't much point me trying to explain it to you
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 18, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
But then how can I expect you when you claim that East Asian stereotypes don`t exist purely because you have not experienced them and they are not based on empirical evidence.
I didn't say that East Asian stereotypes don't exist. Please don't put words into my mouth like that. What I said was that the particular stereotype you introduced into the discussion - that "Asians are seen as sneaky" because of the shape of their eyes - was not one that I had ever heard of before.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 18, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
I am sure this revelation is stunning to those Asians in the US, Canada, Australia, Europe and non Fantasyland UK who experienced these stereotypes and others like it. Stunning to learn that according to kafkod, they are apparently either delusional or liars. In Fantasyland UK where he lives, no one perceives you that way. How nice to know racism has magically become subject to Vulcan -like logic. or if you personally never saw it, it doesn't exist. And all the negative stereotypes still portrayed in the media are accidental or all in their imagination.
Again please don't put words into my mouth. I did not say that Asians anywhere were delusional or liars.
I repeat, what I said was that I did not view Asians as sneaky because of the shape of their eyes and, until you wrote about it here, I did not know that anybody else viewed them in that way either.
And who are you to lecture me about what Asians in this or that part of the world have experienced?
Are you going to start putting your own words into their mouths also?
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 18, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
Or maybe like a racist using `science`to justify their beliefs you do the same to justify your view that women exist as some catfight sex toy. Japan attacked the US in a sneak attack at Pearl Harbor. Women (like men) pull hair in fights. A racist will claim the former happened because its the nature of Asians just as you claim the latter happens because its a woman`s nature. Both of you need to grow up and join us in the real world. Both have to realise this fundamental truth: Humans are of the same species, be they different genders or ethnicity. Treating a woman as some alien creature compared to a man makes as much sense as treating a black person as an alien creature from a white person.
If you insist upon introducing subjects like paedophilia and racism into discussions like this then you really should take a little while to actually THINK about what you are trying to say before you start writing.
Otherwise you just come over as a self-righteous, pontificating buffoon. And I would hate people to gain an impression like that about you Meg, I really would.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 18, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
And your response to the "two bitches in heat" is hilarious when you realize that its was about MEN doing it. But hey we have a men vs men forum so to each their own..
So if the "two bitches in heat" comment was actually about the way men fight, rather than women, why did you post it in a discussion about women pulling hair on the ground, rather than in the men vs men forum?
I'm not calling you a bare-faced back-peddling liar - heaven forbid! But if it REALLY was about men .... just wondering.
Sigh.
1. Instinctive means "by nature, innate" or something one was born with. Instinctively means doing it by nature. So yeah you were saying women are naturally compelled to pull hair. If you actually meant something else entirely, say so. You would have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment.
2. Did you not state "This is all news to me. Maybe East Asians are percieved in that way by ignorant people in the part of the world you grew up in, but not anywhere else." ? When you say no one else in the world see East Asians like that other than in my country, that is a broad statement. Maybe think before you post, since hyperbole can backfire. So no I did not put any words in your mouth. Once again it seems you have little clue what the words you are saying mean. And I am aware of the troubles East Asians and other minorities face because I speak to them and seen some of it first hand. I am also not completly ignorant on events and mindsets around the world. Heck even some basic research in the field reveals this.
3. I have no worries about being seen as a self righteous pontificating buffoon. Fear not, you are still the industry standard in that area.
4. Yes the bitches in heat comment was about how people see ground fighting for both men and women and why they break it up at that point, at least in my experience and those of others I keep in touch with.
5. Based on the fact you seem to not recall what you stated previously on a consistent basis, I would say you are the barefaced , back peddling liar. Considering this is because I mentioned something previously that disagreed with your mindset, it does suggest you have some issues with people disagreeing with you. Based on your generally degrading comments to me and not to the men who disagreed with you, I am fairly confident you have particular issues with women doing so. The comment most telling was your last.
"But if it REALLY was about men .... just wondering." It has a strong odor of "you hate men, right? " I can see no other rationale for such an odd comment. I made it clear which genders I was speaking of. And if you are going to backpeddle yet, claiming you mean something harmless again don't bother. Any further back and you will be posting in 2013.
I have stated genders quite clearly through my discussion, Kafkod. You were the person that started this by an attack on me, despite others disagreeing with you. Even more absurdly, all i did to offend thee, was describe the likely mindset of the people watching the fights and why hair pulling and rolling on the ground are seen as unacceptable. Truly it is one of the most innocuous things I have seen someone take offence to. If you want to think ANY stereotype is defended by fact, that's your choice. But don't be offended by the fact I call you a hypocrite in claiming some are supportable but others are not. I am still stunned people hate racism but feel its hunky dory to have equally ignorant views of 50 percent of the human race.
I apologize to Wasteland1952 once again. I had hoped this could have been settled long ago. I would appreciate a return to the topic myself and not dealing with endless attacks over some guy's wounded ego.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 19, 2014, 05:14:36 AM
Kafkod. You were the person that started this by an attack on me, despite others disagreeing with you.
I didn't start this by attacking you. I just pointed out that you were slapping people down for going off topic, then doing the same thing yourself.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 19, 2014, 05:14:36 AM
Based on your generally degrading comments to me and not to the men who disagreed with you, I am fairly confident you have particular issues with women doing so.
Apart from Cecil saying that he found crotch mauling more arousing than hair pulling in a catfight, YOU are the only person who has disagreed with anything I said in this thread.
Quote from: nutmeg78 on March 19, 2014, 05:14:36 AM
"But if it REALLY was about men .... just wondering." It has a strong odor of "you hate men, right? "
Wrong. What I meant by that was that when you wrote about "two bitches rolling around in heat" it REALLY did seem like you were referring to the way women fight. But if you were insisting that it was a reference to men, then I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt.
In other words, it's, "Over and out" from me on this one. But if you want to fly solo with it, be my guest.