I have been thinking about this a lot the last couple weeks. Partly triggered by another topic here, partly because I am alone in a hotel and have too much time to think. I implied in another post http://www.freecatfights.com/forums/index.php/topic,35474.0.html (http://www.freecatfights.com/forums/index.php/topic,35474.0.html) that women who do not embrace their mens fantasies may not really love them. I was chastised a bit for this statement, but I stand by it. One of the signs that you love somebody is your desire to please and take care of them. This should work both ways. I bring flowers, write emails, letters, and poetry, call every single night I am on the road, do my best to take care of my wife's every need when I am home, tell her constantly I love her and that she is beautiful, never show interest in any female starlet or to the best of my abilities any other woman, and make every effort to please her in our bedroom no matter how I might feel when she is interested in sex. If ladies watched a movie where the husband didn't do those things, I think the immediate assumption would be that he was selfish or cruel, didn't love her, and by the end of the movie either the lout would change or she would find true love with somebody else. So why is it that the opposite is not true? Why is it OK if the woman calls only when it is convenient, only makes love when she really wants to, can talk endlessly about romantic lead after romantic leads perfect lines or rippling abs, complains constantly that her man is not in the same shape he was 20 years ago, and refuses to have anything to do with the one thing that turns him on more than anything else in the world? As human beings our sexuality is a big part of who we are. Demanding that we somehow surrender that part of ourselves because it is inconvenient is not love, it is control. In my case, I know a large part of why my wife reacts this way is the HORRIBLE advice she got from her friends when I revealed my secret. As a result of that, decided to put an open letter to women offering my two cents on my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/ljack66 (https://www.facebook.com/ljack66) so maybe some of the ladies learning their man is into this might get some decent advice from one of us perverts afflicted with this obsession.
It is not that I think every woman whose man is into this needs to take up MMA classes. There are a thousand things that you can do to embrace this to your individual tolerance level without ever so much as breaking a nail. But based on my experience out here in cyberspace and years of conversations about 95% of women will have nothing to do with this fantasy no matter how much it turns their man on. Some may tolerate it, but they will not speak about it, engage their men about it, or have anything to do with it. How many things are there that women love their men to do that Men would so universally refuse to do? What if 95% of men refused to buy their wives flowers, to hold their hand in public, or tell them they were beautiful? What if 95% of us refused to hold you after we made love, or engage in foreplay? Unthinkable.
I know for myself, this is the prevailing force of my sexual identity for my entire life and my wife will have NOTHING to do with it. Of course there are many things about her that turn me on, but this is the strongest sexual interest I have and she will not even talk to me about it even though she has physically fought other women or engaged in confrontations that easily could have resulted in all out fights in the past over things as trivial as a parking spot, a place in line, clothing in stores, or household appliances or nicknacks costing less than $10. She of course tells me she loves me, but it is hard to accept when apparently I mean less to her than a $10 nicknack.
I have often told the women who engage in this for their husbands how amazing they are that they tell their husbands stories, or watch videos with them, chat in the chat rooms here with them, or engage in a bit of role play, or even do a bit of submission wrestling. glamor boxing, or rules catfights for their men. You are all amazing. But really, don't you think you should be the norm and not the exception?
Lumberjack,
Wow. I see this really upsets you. You stated your case very well. I would love to chat with you on this subject sometime.
Ladies what are your thoughts?
I have the best mother-in-law in the world. I say this because when Nancy and I were dating and it reached the point where we were thinking about sharing our lives together, her mother said she should ask me what my sexual fantasies were. She said all men have them, and the more strange or deviant they were the less willing men will be to share it with anyone, especially their girlfriend and even their wife after they are married. She said the only way to know was to be forthright and ask. Then she said you have to ask yourself if you can live with it. If not, then it's best to know before you get married. When Nancy asked me I first told her, "Oral sex." She rolled her eyes and said, "Okay, so college boy would like a blow job. I really want to know what turns you on that you would never tell anyone about." So I told her about my catfight fetish and she said she could live with that. The only two things she said she couldn't live with would be a pedophile or a cross dresser. She said the thought of her man dressing up in women's clothes just irked her for some reason. I showed her two videos I had. It was actually a very difficult thing for me to do at the time and I can't explain why. The only thing I can equate it to would be if your mom said, "Son, I want you to masturbate in front of me, so I can see if you're doing it right." There was this feeling of "I'm sharing too much," coupled with the feeling that now I would have to kill her because she knows and if we break up could use it against me. Anyway I wasn't comfortable sharing that with her. I did feel better when she shared her fantasies with me (which I'm not going to share).
It led to her trying to please me (arranged matches while I secretly watched in the next room), but I didn't like that so we quit.
Luckyman...how di that work if u dont mind sharing....so u watched ur wife fight while u were in a diff room? did the other gilrl know u saw...did u pick the other girl..howd u get her to do it....i ask becauee my girl n i spoke on this very topic n she is interested in doing a fight for my bday...but we are undecided if she should find a girl for her to do it with or if i should..curious to hear how u n ur girl did it
Well Jack, you and I have TWO things in common: 1) this fetish and 2) wives that won't talk about it.
But I don't think that it has anything to do with them not loving us. It's more of an individual issue for them and probably has a lot to do with deep seated morals that were established in their youth. Personally, I write it off to my wife's Presbyterian upbringing. I mean I couldn't remotely fathom my mother-in-law doing what Luckyman's did and telling her daughter to ask her prospective husband about his sexual fantasies. I seriously doubt that either of my in-laws had any of their own, unless it involved a dictionary.
That's just the way it is. If she can live with me knowing that I get aroused by watching two women wrestle, then I can live with her not being comfortable about discussing it. After all, she's tolerated my many faults for all of these years, so put into perspective, it's not that big of a thing. That's why I frequent this website. Here we CAN talk about it among like minded people, so this is a surrogate. Not as good as having a wife who would embrace at least an occasional discussion on the topic, but far better than no discussion at all. So it's all as OK as it can be. And thanks to all of you who come here and open up. It's like a nightly visit to the local pub.
As we were both at the university at the time, "getting a girl" wasn't a problem. Nancy would just invite one of her girlfriends over. There was some contention when she asked me who I'd like to see, and I made the mistake of mentioning a name. That started a series of 20-questions from her, like "So what is it with her?" I soon learned I wasn't allowed to pick. And that was okay with me as she didn't have any ugly friends.
The fights (wrestling), however, weren't real. It was obvious they were putting on a show "for someone," and I didn't like it that the girls knew I was there, even if out of sight. In some cases (with the really hot chicks) I'd imagine they had a crush on me and agreed to fight Nancy because they thought if I saw how good they were I'd ask them out, etc. A fantasy in my mind I'm sure. But I didn't like the fact that "my secret" was getting known by other people, and that's what really killed it for me. I told Nancy that watching the real thing wasn't as sexy as I thought it would be. It was much more interesting just to watch a video or read a story, and I told her not to invite any more girls over.
It wasn't until we'd been married several months that Nancy started taking boxing lessons at the gym and learned to like it. And, I think it came as a surprise to both of us how her wearing her "fighting gear" in the bedroom improved our sex life. She would spar with other girls at the gym, and though I cheered for her the fact that they were wearing headgear, and usually wearing sweats, made it about as sexy as sumo wrestling. And then there came that fight with Monique...so now we're going down a different road. Exciting and scary as well.
... I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that such women "don't" really love their men"... but I do concur on the spirit and other particulars of your post !
What is it about catfighting that so mortifies women ? *
* And I refer here to the very concept, of men liking this, and not of those women actually getting down to doing one.
Some years ago, my then girfriend, totally out of the blue, told me her top sexual fantasies and then, of course, she asked me what mine were.
Hesitating, I told her of my foundness for catfights... specifiying that I was NOT into real catfights (i.e. women actually hurting each other) and going out of my way to NOT imply that I wanted HER to get in catfighting.
Well, she started by saying she was "very disapointed" in me... and then read me the riot act (to this day I still think that if I'd instead answered "Doint it with chimps", that I would have gotten less of an earful from her, she was so indignant about it and such...
The ironic thing being that she would have made for a first rate catfighter, solidly built and a bad temper that used to get her in many fights... but usually vs. men !
To boot, ten years later or so... I found out that she was now "into women" (LOL)
But back to Lumberjack's point, yes, beyond catfighting or even sexual fetiches... don't most couples (or for that matter friends, and families) have to compromise, even on stuff theyb really don't like even it it's only now and then and only dipping the tip of your little toe in ?
I'm sure that most catfight fans would settle for just being able to talk about it now and then "Say, see that bank teller there ? Think you could take her ?", or about t.v./movie catfights or potential catfights.
Or, say they don't like a co-worker or actress/singer ect... to answer, even without going on and on about it "What would you like to do to her ?".
But no, in most cases (mine and those of people I've spoken to over the years on sites like this one), it's a flat "No and never bring that up again"... if not the said riot act reading along with it... even if the catfight discussion involves no nudity or erotic aspect, actual violence...
... but if a man reacts like that when his wife asks him to "do her" wearing a fireman's hat, then we'd get an earful again...
Meanwhile, some of us go out of our way to sit and watch "Danielle Steele" movies with them ect... (mind you, it's less of a strain when it's one with Lynda Carter in it)
I wanted to try to clarify a bit here... I love my wife. She tells me that she loves me. I don't think there is another man she loves more, but I honestly question how much she really loves me from time to time. I think there are a slew of reasons that make her hyper prudish in our bedroom and I understand many of those reasons. We all have history, interests, pre-dispositions. I won't go into all the very good reasons that my wife might not be willing to do this and might in general have aversions to anything sexual in nature. I'd point out that in spite of all those aversions, she has no issue telling dirty jokes, watching tv shows with crude humor, sex scenes, or violence in general, discussing sexual issues with her friends and family, flaunting her beauty when it is convenient for her, or having other men flirt with her. While she is a prude in our bedroom, I doubt anybody else who knows her would guess she was a prude or just how prudish she is. She is a fan of sports including Men's Wrestling and Boxing. I have literally seen her fight over a $10 decoration, and I have literally stopped her from fighting a dozen times or more so I know that she is not afraid of confrontation or aggression.
I am sorry if this comes off as a bit of a rant. Not the first time I have ranted, and probably not the last. I would say what I was upset about was a combination of some things my wife said about a friend's wife that were entirely hypocritical, some discussions here (in particular the discussion of women who tell their husbands stories), and quite honestly some women who were hitting on me in the real world. I am a reasonably handsome, intelligent, caring, compassionate, successful man. It was not the first time that women have hit on me and it likely will not be the last. So why if other women want me would my wife who says she love me deliberately leave me so completely sexually unfulfilled? In essence, she leaves me vulnerable. She knows other women will hit on me. She has seen it happen many times.
I would say first of all she started to deny me sexually before this all came out for Control. I think that is a pretty prevailing theme in our society. Men want to have sex, women can deny us, therefore women believe that gives them control in a relationship. And in a way they really are correct about that. For thousand years men have tried just about anything to woo women. Society largely exists because men were trying to somehow impress women. Fortunately women have occasionally thrown us a bone so it has worked out. But I think the reality is that feeling of control is an illusion particularly in modern times. Women believe that if they occasionally satisfy their man, the men will do anything the women want them to. But the control only exists to the extent that the man is faithful to his woman and no other women want him. As soon as a man decides sex is more important than his commitment and finds a woman willing to do whatever it takes to steal the man, the control is over. That is until the man belongs to the other woman and then typically the cycle begins all over again. I think we have all seen it before and probably multiple times.
Of course it works both ways. There are men that want to control the women. And I am sure there are plenty of women here (and on just about any other forum) that could go on for hours about how terrible we are. I believe that kind of caveman control of women is pretty much statistically dead. It just doesn't work. Of course there are the men too who simply forgo any commitment to any woman and spend the bulk of their time hoping from woman to woman. What is amazing to me is that in our society that appears to work fairly well for them.
I guess what I am saying is that the whole system would work much better if people who love each other would try to take care of the others needs. What is upsetting to me is that at least in our little corner of the universe, it appears that 95% of our women have apparently decided that their men are for some reason unworthy of having satisfaction from them regarding what is apparently a fairly powerful obsession. And I ask why is that? Would it really kill them to share a simple story with us before making love to their men? To maybe have an open conversation from time to time about what turns them on and what turns us on? Of course there are limits to what they should do for us just as there are limits on what we do for them. But something? Anything? Please? Anything? Again as I said in my facebook post, if you found out your man had a foot fetish would you wear sexy shoes and paint your toenails? If certain clothing was a turn on, would you wear it from time to time? Just to make sure that it was you he thought of when he thought of his favorite turn on? So then why is it with regard to this women seem to be so overwhelming 100% against it in any way, shape, or form?
Yeah, what about just the basic old principle, applied to many types of relationships...
"Sometimes, I'll do (or talk with you about) stuff that YOU like, but which I'm not crazy about and, sometimes, YOU'LL do (or talk with me about) stuff that I like, but that you're not crazy about" ????
Again, CFSupporter, there are many levels of "embrace". Not sure how many of your husbands friends are into this as much as we are, and maybe those who are's wives would be afraid to challenge an experienced woman like yourself or anybody else for that matter. But to whisper a simple sexy story into her man's ear about that secretary or waitress or whatever just to drive him wild? Why the heck not! Why leave them to fantasize about you instead of them?
Quote from: lumberjack66 on November 18, 2013, 09:35:17 AM
I have been thinking about this a lot the last couple weeks. Partly triggered by another topic here, partly because I am alone in a hotel and have too much time to think. I implied in another post http://www.freecatfights.com/forums/index.php/topic,35474.0.html (http://www.freecatfights.com/forums/index.php/topic,35474.0.html) that women who do not embrace their mens fantasies may not really love them. I was chastised a bit for this statement, but I stand by it. One of the signs that you love somebody is your desire to please and take care of them. This should work both ways. I bring flowers, write emails, letters, and poetry, call every single night I am on the road, do my best to take care of my wife's every need when I am home, tell her constantly I love her and that she is beautiful, never show interest in any female starlet or to the best of my abilities any other woman, and make every effort to please her in our bedroom no matter how I might feel when she is interested in sex. If ladies watched a movie where the husband didn't do those things, I think the immediate assumption would be that he was selfish or cruel, didn't love her, and by the end of the movie either the lout would change or she would find true love with somebody else. So why is it that the opposite is not true? Why is it OK if the woman calls only when it is convenient, only makes love when she really wants to, can talk endlessly about romantic lead after romantic leads perfect lines or rippling abs, complains constantly that her man is not in the same shape he was 20 years ago, and refuses to have anything to do with the one thing that turns him on more than anything else in the world? As human beings our sexuality is a big part of who we are. Demanding that we somehow surrender that part of ourselves because it is inconvenient is not love, it is control. In my case, I know a large part of why my wife reacts this way is the HORRIBLE advice she got from her friends when I revealed my secret. As a result of that, decided to put an open letter to women offering my two cents on my facebook page https://www.facebook.com/ljack66 (https://www.facebook.com/ljack66) so maybe some of the ladies learning their man is into this might get some decent advice from one of us perverts afflicted with this obsession.
It is not that I think every woman whose man is into this needs to take up MMA classes. There are a thousand things that you can do to embrace this to your individual tolerance level without ever so much as breaking a nail. But based on my experience out here in cyberspace and years of conversations about 95% of women will have nothing to do with this fantasy no matter how much it turns their man on. Some may tolerate it, but they will not speak about it, engage their men about it, or have anything to do with it. How many things are there that women love their men to do that Men would so universally refuse to do? What if 95% of men refused to buy their wives flowers, to hold their hand in public, or tell them they were beautiful? What if 95% of us refused to hold you after we made love, or engage in foreplay? Unthinkable.
I know for myself, this is the prevailing force of my sexual identity for my entire life and my wife will have NOTHING to do with it. Of course there are many things about her that turn me on, but this is the strongest sexual interest I have and she will not even talk to me about it even though she has physically fought other women or engaged in confrontations that easily could have resulted in all out fights in the past over things as trivial as a parking spot, a place in line, clothing in stores, or household appliances or nicknacks costing less than $10. She of course tells me she loves me, but it is hard to accept when apparently I mean less to her than a $10 nicknack.
I have often told the women who engage in this for their husbands how amazing they are that they tell their husbands stories, or watch videos with them, chat in the chat rooms here with them, or engage in a bit of role play, or even do a bit of submission wrestling. glamor boxing, or rules catfights for their men. You are all amazing. But really, don't you think you should be the norm and not the exception?
Interesting post. Thanks. One observation: Do you really equate your phone calls, flowers and poetry to be the same level of sacrifice or effort as intimate physical competition with another person? You might think differently if you and your wife's roles were reversed. There is a certain mindset of women who consider any sexual arousal (the male's) from activity that involves the presence of another woman to be threatening or even degrading. Your poetry, phone calls and flowers are something you can do on your own without necessarily having to offer yourself up to exposure. Her embrace of your excitement with FvsF may never equal your expectations if your goal is for her to compete. I think it may be a great move for you to find an outlet or focus for your FvsF that allows your to pursue your interests without fear or being judged or facing disdain from your SO.
I used to date a woman who said she was really turned on watching guys jerk each other off. When she told me this I knew it wasn't an area I wanted to share or explore with her IRL or as a theme for movie night. I had absolute zero intention of pursuing that genre to embrace her arousal/fantasy/fetish and decided we'd focus on other areas and she could explore that aspect of her sexuality by herself, or at least without my participation. I don't regret it. I don't feel bad about it. It simply wasn't my cup of tea and she never pushed me or pressed me about it. On the other hand she knew of my love of FvsF and sincerely enjoyed the subsequent boot Knocking sessions that followed. I never once considered her as a combatant or doing anything other than "watching with me", which was more than I was ready to do for her. Do you think your wife might be more open to watching FvsF with you if she knew you weren't harboring a desire to see her as a live FvsF combatant? You owe it to yourself to find a way you can enjoy and experience your FvsF fetish to the fullest whether that involve some level of participation with your wife or not. Best of Luck figuring this out.
Good response CFsupporter. As I also stated in another post, my wife doesn't tell a story about her and another woman fighting, tho she does know about my fetish. When we're out together, especially at the mall I look to see if any women would match up with her and then think how they might start fighting. If we're at a holidy party or a wedding and I see her and another woman wearing dresses and pantyhose, I fantasize the 2 of them going outside and fight.
Believe me, I wouldn't want my wife to get into a real fight, just the thought of them rolling on the floor with their nylon clad legs tightly wrapped around each other, or both in tight jeans and bumping into one another in a store and starting something is what's exciting.
Cecil, you have an interesting take on it. I was not equating this directly to poetry or flowers. But those are things men do for women because they love them, not because we are born poets or love flowers. We do things for people we love. Again, what I have been saying from the start is I am not surprised that women do not actually want to fight other women to turn their S.O. on. There are things I probably could not do to turn my wife on, no matter how much I might want to. But this is something that is very much a part of many if not most women's nature. There is a reason women love the sound of a catfight. There is a reason physical confrontation is a recurring theme in women's soap operas and it is not that they are appealing to our demographic. Competition both physical and otherwise is as much a part of women's nature as it is part of men's nature. Even if it wasn't, what kind of sacrifice would it be to tell a story? Whisper something in our ear? Maybe watch a video with us and comment on it?
You mentioned your former Girl Friends fascination with two guys jerking each other off. First I would have to say that is a pretty fringe turn on for most women. Second I am about as Homophobic a male as you will ever find so I can certainly understand why you would want to have nothing to do with that. But assume for a moment you truly loved the woman, married her, and wanted her to be happy can you say you would have nothing to do with this no matter what? I know in my case, if that was what made my wife horny, I'd probably get some videos about it, maybe surf the net with her, probably write her a story or two about it. Not sure I could say I would actually do it. Honestly homophobic enough I am not even sure I could physically do it. Doubt I would personally ever be turned on by any of it. But I'd probably at least consider it. Maybe I am an anomaly on this, but I'd try to figure out how to make it work, try to turn her on. And I think that is the point here. Our little fetish is much more main stream and much more tame than just about any fantasy there is. It is prominently featured on TV and in the Movies. There are very few males that would not at least be a little turned on by it. It may not be their "Thing", but it is still hot. And still apparently the majority of our women, the women who say they love us above all others, don't feel the need to try to indulge us in any way, shape, or form.
Quote from: lumberjack66 on December 04, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
Our little fetish is much more main stream and much more tame than just about any fantasy there is. It is prominently featured on TV and in the Movies. There are very few males that would not at least be a little turned on by it. It may not be their "Thing", but it is still hot. And still apparently the majority of our women, the women who say they love us above all others, don't feel the need to try to indulge us in any way, shape, or form
I agree %200! This is why we as male FvsF fans need to be proactive and stop waiting for or SOs, wives or GFs to whet this insatiable appetite or ours. We should never have to feel embarrassed or set aside about stating what we want to see and how we like to see it. Some of us are so ashamed of our fetish we won't even admit what we like to see to ourselves. That's ridiculous. This is why it's very important to support producers who make content that we like because it's the easiest thing to share. As much as folks claim to hate Ultimate Surrender, I've had more conversations with women that are interested in doing FvsF because of them. They've actually touched on an undiscovered FvsF market share: Women.Quote from: lumberjack66 on December 04, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
But assume for a moment you truly loved the woman, married her, and wanted her to be happy can you say you would have nothing to do with this no matter what?
AbsoMthrfckngLutely! I have less than zero interest in my junk ever being in the hands of another man. Hell - that's why I prefer women doctors. At least if they have to stick a finger up your ass it's more likely to be dainty. It's like that beauty pageant many many years ago when they asked Ms. Taiwan (or maybe it was Ms. Philippines) if she would still love her man if she woke up the next morning and found that he had lost everything he owned. Her answer was something like "Yes I would still love him, and miss him long long time". You know this must be very dated because today she'd probably say "As long as he didn't lose everything 'I' owned, we'd be ok." Quote from: lumberjack66 on December 04, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
Maybe I am an anomaly on this, but I'd try to figure out how to make it work, try to turn her on. And I think that is the point here. .
Then again, there is something to be said about working too hard. ;-)Quote from: lumberjack66 on December 04, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
There is a reason women love the sound of a catfight. There is a reason physical confrontation is a recurring theme in women's soap operas and it is not that they are appealing to our demographic. Competition both physical and otherwise is as much a part of women's nature as it is part of men's nature. Even if it wasn't, what kind of sacrifice would it be to tell a story? Whisper something in our ear? Maybe watch a video with us and comment on it?
Yes I agree - there is a reason. It's just probably not the one that works in hand in hand with our fantasy. The Captain that lived down the block on the Air Force base I grew up in sent his smoking hot twin daughters to school for a reason. He wanted them to get an education. It just wasn't the kind of education I wanted to give them. You're completely right. What sacrifice would it be to tell you a story or fantasize with you just to get you worked up? My guess is that I don't think she should have the power to deliver or deny your pursuit of FvsF. Question: If you met a woman that loved FvsF, was reasonably attractive (i.e. well above Ofectau's "Mendoza" line) and would wrestle in front of you with another woman but didn't want to have sex with you, would you hang out with her in a platonic relationship to fufill your FvsF appetite?
[/quote]
Question: If you met a woman that loved FvsF, was reasonably attractive (i.e. well above Ofectau's "Mendoza" line) and would wrestle in front of you with another woman but didn't want to have sex with you, would you hang out with her in a platonic relationship to fufill your FvsF appetite?
[/quote]
I'd really have to think about it, but probably would not. If there was nothing sexual about this too me, that would be fine. But this is too closely linked to my sexuality. I consider the net my outlet. 100% safe way to get it out of my system, no direct contact, completely anonymous. Having a wrestling female friend in a platonic relationship... not sure how long I could watch before it wasn't platonic for me. A friends wife would be safe. Going to a mud wrestling event or other public event would be fine. Me alone in the room with two female wrestlers knowing that my wife would not do any of this for me... not sure even my unshakable commitment could survive that one. And I guess that is part of my question here... why would the love of my life leave me vulnerable like that when it is so easy to take care of?
Wow, interesting thread, with lots of questions that I have asked myself since I saw From Russia with Love first run in the 60's...Like most, my lovely wife won't fight. She does know my interest. The last time I brought it up while on the patio drinking wine, I even put her hand between my legs, so she knows the reaction the subject gets....lol. But, she still ignores it, and won't even entertain the idea of pointing out a possible rival while we are out. And in the bedroom, she is a great lover, willing to try most anything. But she is also very straight. And I am convinced that the idea of woman to woman contact would be intimidating to her. I believe that opens up a whole new set of questions....why is she intimidated by that, for example. After 34 years of marriage, I am satisfied with where things are. I no longer expect any chance of her changing her mind.
Quote from: FoxyAnne on December 05, 2013, 09:52:07 PM
Quote from: lumberjack66 link=topic=35964.msg275948#msg275948 date
. why would the love of my life leave me vulnerable like that when it is so easy to take care of?
/quote]
I have read this thread with interest, please do not be offended or take this the wrong way but I dare to say that the reason she does not share your fetish is because you seem to be making it about you. If my husband did that then I would not do what I do with him, if you want her to take part then you need to make it two way. I suggest you ask her what her fantasy or fetish is first and then fulfil her desires, without any thought about request about what she could do for you. then I would bet she would return the favour someday, someway, maybe watching a tame fight with you or role playing, but don't make it about you, make it about the two of you.
Agony aunt Anne x
Anne, thanks for the thoughts. I agree 100% that it should be a two way thing as most things in marriage should be. And I think I have done a pretty good job of at least trying to fulfill her desires. Unfortunately at least according to her she has no fantasies as racy as mine. Pretty much anything she has asked in our 23 years I have done and never quid pro quo. Sex on our balconies, in the car, at the cabin. Like I said, pretty tame, but that has been all she has wanted. Wish I could find a way to make this subject more about her too. Something so she could enjoy it. Thought I did once when we heard on TV that wrestling was the #1 best form of exercise (she loves to exercise), but it didn't work. Any other suggestions for us?
Quote
Question: If you met a woman that loved FvsF, was reasonably attractive (i.e. well above Ofectau's "Mendoza" line) and would wrestle in front of you with another woman but didn't want to have sex with you, would you hang out with her in a platonic relationship to fufill your FvsF appetite?
Quote from: lumberjack66 on December 05, 2013, 09:23:47 PM
I'd really have to think about it, but probably would not. If there was nothing sexual about this too me, that would be fine. But this is too closely linked to my sexuality. I consider the net my outlet. 100% safe way to get it out of my system, no direct contact, completely anonymous. Having a wrestling female friend in a platonic relationship... not sure how long I could watch before it wasn't platonic for me. A friends wife would be safe. Going to a mud wrestling event or other public event would be fine. Me alone in the room with two female wrestlers knowing that my wife would not do any of this for me... not sure even my unshakable commitment could survive that one. And I guess that is part of my question here... why would the love of my life leave me vulnerable like that when it is so easy to take care of?
...and there you have it. What is it that doesn't ring true? You wouldn't be satisfied with a woman who would do FvsF with you via a platonic relationship but "a friend's wife would be safe"? Why is a friend's wife safe? Most guys I know would love to hang out with women who do FvsF whether they were sexual with them or not. But not you. You can only feel good about this if it's your wife or the wife of a friend? I'm afraid none of this passes the sniff test. However I will say one thing. You have a choice to make. Either follow your FvsF and find a way to enjoy it without your wife or forget about FvsF and let your wife control your life. Don't listen to assholes like Alias. If the shoe were on the other foot and your wife was posting about you, this moron would be on your wife's side. There will always be some shit-iot waiting in the watchtower calling B.S. on every man that has a problem with their wife not fulfilling their fantasy. My question is, as a grown man why do you insist on giving another person that power? You can find women that will address you needs and desires - but they all aren't going to be interested in being your wife or the wife of one of your friends. You really need to sort that issue out first and then step back towards the light.
Quote from: Alias on December 16, 2013, 01:06:04 PM
CecilBDmented
Really? I AM THE ASHOLLE? ???
You don't get to jump on this board and crawl up some guy's ass in your pathetic attempt to Man Bash. No one cares about that crap. If that's what impresses you go watch re-runs of Sally Jesse Raphael. SlumberJ posted an honest inquiry and you decided to squat down and take a crap over it instead of simply consider where he might be coming from. Yes, that qualifies you as the "Asholle" (your typo - not mine). Here is a small suggestion - try picking fights with folks in your own mental weight class - and for the love of everything that is holy and sacred either learn how to spell or learn how to type, but for the love of God please pick one.
Wow. A lot to answer too here. First, Anne, thank you for your thoughtful feedback. That is EXACTLY what I was looking for with this conversation. Love the "Swing and a Miss" comment. Describes most of my efforts to include my wife in this. ;-) Glad to hear you think I am like most men, not sure if you are saying we are all jerks. I think it is safe to say most of us really don't understand women and what makes them tick which is why I find your insight so valuable.
Cecil, I think where I am trying to go with this discussion is not completely about satisfying this interest. I didn't mean to imply I am unsatisfied in my marriage. No marriage is perfect, but I love my wife and am committed to my marriage. I have been married over 20 years. I guess what I have been trying to say is that it seems to me that part of any marriage should be trying to please your partner in all aspects including sexually. I knew before we were married that my wife was a bit repressed (with a few wild exceptions) and I get that. If I were the lone exception, I would just say "that's my wife". But from what I have seen here, my relationship reflects what appears to be the vast majority of men at least with this particular fetish. I can't say that the same extends to all unusual sexual fetishes (ie. foot fetish, clothing fetish, etc.) as I am not part of those communities and really not looking to research it. I would say that I have found my outlet. If I HAD to have this NEED satisfied, I would want to have my wife satisfy it. If she refuses, then I guess I will just go unsatisfied.
Finally, to Alias. I am not sure if something is getting lost in the translation here. Generally I am not called a jerk here by those who I have spoken with. I try to be polite, intelligent, and thoughtful. I was not trying to indicate I was the ideal spouse. In the real world I am a good husband, a good provider, a good father. I was trying to say that I make an effort to keep my wife happy and tried to use examples. I was not trying to make a complete laundry list of every intimate detail of our married life where I think I have done it right, just a few general things. We have been married over 20 years and most people tease us about how we act like newly weds. We both look young for our age, work out regularly, are successful in just about every sense of the word. If you had any information how I could make a woman happier in a modern relationship, always happy to hear about it. I clearly have rubbed you the wrong way. Again, I am lumping myself in with the 90% of men who have this interest whose wives feel entitled to have nothing to do with it.
Perhaps again it is lost in the translation, but I don't want my wife involved in some brutal catfight. My wife has a temper. She has been in catfights before over what I would suggest were less important things than somebody who is supposed to be the love of her life. She has been very close many times in our relationship and with one exception where it happened so fast I could do nothing about it, I stopped every single one. It is not that my wife hates the idea of fighting. She has fought over much much less important things than even her worthless husband. I stopped them because I love my wife and wouldn't want her hurt. I would expect most women wouldn't want to fight any more than even most of us Cavemen manage not to brawl every time we turn around. However, what apparently a number of women do is take advantage of this fantasy simply telling their men a story to turn them on. I never implied anywhere that anybody should force their wife to fight. I have asked why would they apparently deliberately avoid turning their husbands on.
I would disagree with you that this is a really special interest. There is a reason why it is a staple in Soap Operas, Movies, Pop Culture. There are schools that now have young ladies on the wrestling team. There are professional female cage fighters. And it isn't just us leering cavemen that are apparently interested in it. I would suggest if anything the interest in Catfights is more widespread among women than it is among men. I believe it is not a sexual interest for women, more of an empowering thing but certainly nowhere near as Taboo as having your cross dressing husband being brutally raped by another man regardless of race of the attacker. Personally I think lumping all us poor cavemen in with something that brutal demonstrates more about you perhaps than it does about us. There are limitations to everything and everybody has boundaries, but I would suggest that if you really love somebody you would do the best you could within your personal boundaries to please them. My wife never flinched from a catfight before she found out it was a turn on for me. So would it kill her to tell me about one of her catfights? Just to make me happy if not turn me on? Or to make up a story?
My question has been why does it appear that 90% of women would deliberately refuse to turn their men on with the subject being such a mainstream thing. And I think you have answered my question with the myth of the modern man. I believe that the modern relationship you are describing with "real man" is a construct of Hollywood. You take a Handsome fellow with an army of script writers half of whom are women, you put him into a romantic situation where he always says the right thing at the right time, he worships the ground the leading lady walks on, and apparently has no sexual appetites whatsoever other than to derive joy from the happiness of his leading lady and you feed this as a constant stream multiplied by boy bands and pop idols to young women in the western world as what the ideal Modern Man should be and they come to expect that from us poor misbegotten cave men. Never mind that what you believe in is a complete fiction more so than my flying car is. That leading man and leading lady are cycling through relationships so fast they dedicate entire magazines and TV programs to track it, but you expect us to measure up to that movie script image. That is why I believe the vast majority of divorces (at least in America) are initiated by women, why the vast majority of cheating spouses are women, and why it appears women are overall so unhappy in their marriages. They are busy looking for that Modern Man that they have been promised is out there even as they revel in reading the stories about how all men suck and they troll forums looking for opportunities to tear men down and scream about how intellectually superior they and their countrymen are to the rabble that surrounds them.
Finally to everybody else... Have fun and play nice!
I completely agree with the mythological male stereotype and the western women who fall for it. I also agree that it seems like your wife (and the wives of many others) could make a little more effort to support men in their FvsF fantasy. Where we may differ and where I draw the line is in giving anyone else the power to fulfill or deny my fantasy. I think you owe it to yourself to pursue your FvsF impulse and scratch that itch.
The days of men having to crawl on our knees begging for satisfaction from our GFs or wives should more often than not, be a thing of the past. There are women that like to satisfy their man. That is always the type of man I am and always the type of man I plan to be.
Slumber, you and I have a similar problem with our wives NOT embracing or at least trying to understand. Ignore Alias by the way. I don't think you can do more than you have. Somewhere along the line you have to say "Okay, I accept the fact you will not understand or indulge me even tho I indulge you." My wife I know has fantasies especially about Chuck Norris, oddly enough as have several ladies I have known, but I have no problem with this. She won't share them however. In her case I'm supposed to magically know what she needs/wants and respond.
I'm sure part of the problem is she is a good Christian woman and I respect that but I wish she was just a little more understanding and accepting.
Will she ever change? NO. Will I, I've tried and it don't work. So that leaves us to agree to disagree and go one. Our whole relationship does not hinge on her acceptance of my fetish or me hers. We just have to love each other. Don't know if this helps or hinders but nice ladies should be trated as such and not ridicules, nor should you be.
Welcome to our big Tent, Colt. Nice you turned to the Dark Side... we have cookies. Probably have to agree with your take on Alias. I think we have gotten to the point where she has empirically determined that any sexual interest we may or may not have are bad and her and her interests are the cats meow. Hopefully she well revel in her victory, move back to the "Superior French Speaking Canadians and their Sexually Superior Men Group" and leave us poor Cavemen alone in our unenlightened ignorance.
Cecil, I understand your point. I am denying myself something that is important to me but I think it is worth it. Just as I deny myself other things in order to be married. It is part of the package in my opinion. As I said, I have what I feel are acceptable outlets and deny myself the unacceptable ones. I am in no way saying my line is better or worse than anybody elses. It is just the line I draw.
To Cecil's point, some men may feel differently about it. Some men might decide they want to see women wrestle/fight/whatever and therefore would find a wrestling buddy which could in my mind leave the door open to more. They might hire strippers or prostitutes to wrestle/fight/whatever. They might make a point to search for it on trips. Etc. Perhaps some men have platonic sexual interest buddies. I suppose in a way, that is what all of you are here for me... platonic sexual interest buddies. But I am not sure if that would work for me in the real world. Which is part of my confusion on all of this. In my mind, if your partner has a major sexual fetish and you refuse to have anything to do with it, it is approximately the equivalent to refusing to have sex. This is not to say a woman must fight if her man says so. What I am saying is that for most of us that I have spoken with, watching a video with us, telling us about a fight you once had, or a fight you would like to have would be more than enough. My experience has been that it is not that women are horrified by the idea (based on chats with women outside of this room). It is just not their thing. They might feel it is silly or degrading so they don't want to have anything to do with it. I guess that is where I don't get it. If you told me that there was a video I could watch with my wife that would make her happy, get her horny, pretty much guarantee I would have sex that night, and would increase the odds that my marriage would be happy and last longer, I think the vast majority of Men would watch it no matter how silly we thought it was. We might be babies and complain about it, but we would do it. I am sure most of us have been through a chick flick or two for exactly those reasons. If my wife told me sucking her toes drove her wild, it turned her own when I wore a bow tie, it turned her on to role play, she loves it when I speak gaelic, or any of 1000 other things, I'd do my best to accomodate her sexual interests. It is 100% in my best interest to do so. It is logical, practical, reasonable, loving, romantic, etc. What I struggle with is why is it the vast majority of our wives or girlfriends refuse to do the same for us. Is it in Cecil's wife's best interest to have Cecil searching for a wrestling buddy? Is it in my wife's best interest to have me exploring an area of my sexuality with all you? Or would it be more in her interest when she is in the mood to tell me a story? To pull up from "Russia with Love" or "10 Million BC" or 100 other movies on netflix and suffer through them with me? To whisper to me in a crowded place that she could kick that woman's ass?
I suppose if our particular fetish is too extreme and they cannot have anything to do with it you might say that we are sexually incompatible. That happens too. One partner wants to have sex nightly, the other feels once a year is plenty. Doesn't mean the collapse of the relationship, but it is certainly going to put a heck of a strain on it. What makes me question this is that I don't think for most of our interests this is too extreme for our ladies. They don't turn off the soaps when there is a catfight. They don't flee in horror when there is a catfight in the bar. They don't avoid movies that have catfights in them or strong female characters fighting. They don't avoid TV shows where the female constantly are fighting with each other in one way or another. They snap up magazines which consistently focus on every potential catfight there is. When Jolie was busy stealing Anniston's man did they shun the tabloids because of the lurid catfight references? Nope.
So then why do 90% of our wives/girlfriends/etc. refuse to have anything to do with this in any way shape or form?
Quote from: Alias on December 16, 2013, 10:50:39 PM
Sure, sorry.
I was stupid enought to think some people around live in the real world ;D
This is not the real world. This is a place where people come to create and share their fantasies with other people. If you are too stupid to understand that, you will get nowhere in your discussions here.
You say you have a man to share your fantasies with, but throw insults at another man for trying to share his fantasies with his wife.
Lumberjack is not trying to force his wife to do anything. He is asking for advice on how to PERSUADE her to talk to him about fights she has had in the past.
Do you get it now?
Alias, you called two male members here rapists for liking catfights. You treated Foxyanne derisively for saying she tried to work with her husband's interests. You call men who like catfights a hideously offensive word to the mentally challenged. I am not sure how any person is supposed to get that you don't either hate this fetish with a passion or are in fact trolling this thread. Personally I think you come across more like a person who hates feminism doing a bad parody of a feminist. As a woman I find you embarrassing and shrill.
Lumberjack has responded to you respectfully. You hurl childish abuse back. There was a serious, thoughtful and until you showed, respectful discussion occurring, a rare thing at times on this site. I think it should be allowed to return to that. So behave like an adult or don't bother to return.
As for reasons why women may not have an interest, well there are several possible reasons:
1. It is seen as trashy. let's face it, the catfight fetish is related strongly with substance wrestling in the 70's and 80's, not a high point of class. Same with things like soap opera catfights. It is like watching Paris Hilton or the Kardasians. Sure we will WATCH the behaviour but not DO it. Also the image of the men who indulged in watching the past time was never the best. So there is quite the sleaze factor attached to it in the mainstream.
2. "But I can't fight! " Most women have likely not been in a fight before. I spent my time in a mainly male household, attached to a bully and several violent women growing up so I am hardly typical. Plus some of my early efforts to do catfight related cyber was more efficient than erotic :) So you are likely going to have someone who is feeling like she has no clue what she should do and is very self conscious doing so. Or feels silly discussing it.
3. "So you want to see me beat up? Or beating someone else up? " Self explanatory really. You are admitting a sexual desire based on violence. And as women we are socialized to avoid that and to be leery when a man suggests it. Male sexual violence tends to not end well for women, especially in popular culture. This might be one of the hardest stigmas to overcome. I would suggest understanding what YOU get from the fetish before hand so you don't end up looking like Chuck Traynor by the end of the day because you stumble around the topic too much. If you seem evasive, the worst case may be assumed.
4. The body contact. If you are into the lots of female body contact aspect of the fetish, your SO might feel that's a little too lesbian for her liking. In real life, I despise being touched. A suggestion I try oil wrestling would go badly. Some people aren't body contact people so that could be an obstacle.You still might be able to get her to discuss it but if she feels strongly enough, that may be enough of a turn off to shut down the subject.
5. You need to involve another woman in this. Which brings questions, insecurities etc.. Any time you bring another person into your sex life the obvious question is why. The best bet might be to keep the other woman in your fantasies as a celebrity (not a threat to steal you away) or some fictional woman. If you choose to discuss your fantasy with your wife and your recently divorced neighbor, you are on your own :)
It gets even weirder if you choose to introduce a whole couple to the equation. The old the wives fight while the men watch makes you seem like you want to be swingers. Now you seem like you want to share her with another man.
I think the bigger obstacles to overcome is to convince her you are not wanting her to be harmed or do harm to someone. Or are looking to replace her or have to fight for the privilege to be with you. Forgive me if I rambled a bit, it is late at night and I had a few points to cover :)
No Miss Ann I don't think you are rambling at all. My wife found out about my fetish before we were married. She is the jealous type and was looking in my desk and found some stories and pictures. This led to a confrontation that basically was Are you sick, I could never do anything like that. I explained I didn't want to see her hurt but instead see her trying to be the best. I'm been told I'm a bit competitive maybe this is part of the reason I like this genre. I once asked the question, Am I strange?" on the old Combative Women site and Barb said no I wasn't but also that my quirk was not going away and I had best find some way to get along. This I learned, she will NEVER understand nor participate. End of story. I still love her and want to spend my life with her so I don't bring it up or indulge at home when she's around & I keep my thoughts to myself. It is frustration and I sometimes get on here and vent but that's the way it is.
Now I'm rambling
Quote from: colt 45 on December 18, 2013, 01:45:37 AM
No Miss Ann I don't think you are rambling at all. My wife found out about my fetish before we were married. She is the jealous type and was looking in my desk and found some stories and pictures. This led to a confrontation that basically was Are you sick, I could never do anything like that. I explained I didn't want to see her hurt but instead see her trying to be the best. I'm been told I'm a bit competitive maybe this is part of the reason I like this genre. I once asked the question, Am I strange?" on the old Combative Women site and Barb said no I wasn't but also that my quirk was not going away and I had best find some way to get along. This I learned, she will NEVER understand nor participate. End of story. I still love her and want to spend my life with her so I don't bring it up or indulge at home when she's around & I keep my thoughts to myself. It is frustration and I sometimes get on here and vent but that's the way it is.
Now I'm rambling
Well - at least no one of any significance. If someone suggested you or any other male were anything less than 'straight' because of your enjoyment of FvsF, I'd have to think they were using the term in a different vernacular than it's used in San Francisco CA where I live. In the long run I suspect your marriage may be better off because you aren't ablle to share this side of your fantasy life with your wife. Maybe that works out better for some relationships and causes them to last longer or at least focus on areas that will engage and endure with the persistence of actual couple for the length of the relationship. I don't believe monogamy suits many relationships, but it's the template so many of them use to paint their personal prisons. I think when people are able to step outside the box of the status quo or the 'norm' they may be rewarded with a more carefree way of living loving and enjoying life. I also think that box serves and protects many relationships from self-destruction. I suppose the trick is in knowing which method works for you and your situation. Bottom line: If you've found a way to reconcile your situation, more power to you!
Some fantastic replies here. The insight on how this includes others makes sense. It opens up lots of possible conflicts including the swinger angle, the lesbian contact as well as the possible violence. I am sure each of the 90% has one or more of Meg's 5 barriers to this and it adds up to 90%. Makes perfect sense when you put it that way. Thank you so much, Meg. I believe in my own personal case that despite my emphatic denial, my wife believes that I want to see her in some kind of insane fight to the finish with me as the prize. However, she elected to stay married to me in spite of the fact that I am a freak at least in her mind. So does anybody have any suggestions how one might maneuver past those barriers? I mean how would you suggest that we get the ladies in our life to consider it when they have immediately throw up barriers like that?
Also for Meg and Anne... ramble... please... I need some good Rambling to figure this out. Thanks!
Quote from: cffanm49 on December 08, 2013, 12:19:37 AM
Wow, interesting thread, with lots of questions that I have asked myself since I saw From Russia with Love first run in the 60's...Like most, my lovely wife won't fight. She does know my interest. The last time I brought it up while on the patio drinking wine, I even put her hand between my legs, so she knows the reaction the subject gets....lol. But, she still ignores it, and won't even entertain the idea of pointing out a possible rival while we are out. And in the bedroom, she is a great lover, willing to try most anything. But she is also very straight. And I am convinced that the idea of woman to woman contact would be intimidating to her. I believe that opens up a whole new set of questions....why is she intimidated by that, for example. After 34 years of marriage, I am satisfied with where things are. I no longer expect any chance of her changing her mind.
And, for the record, and perhaps more insight into her attitudes, my wife has a her me and him fantasy. A three way. I have told her I am willing to give her that fantasy, but she wants to keep it a fantasy and won't do that either.
Quote from: CFsupporter on December 18, 2013, 04:07:56 PM
This thread just shows that no two people are alike. My husband and I have a great relationship and a big part of what makes it all tick is he and I being open to what we like and how we can have fun fulfilling those fantasies. I just purchased a stocking stuffers for him of a couple of female catfight DVDs that we can watch together. It is all in fun. Have a terrific holiday everyone!
I am sure I have mentioned it before, but I hate your husband. ;-) Just the insane jealousy talking. Seriously that is the exact healthy approach that I am talking about. A bit of sexy fun will hurt nobody. In my mind it would be no different than a wife getting her husband a bit of sexy lingerie for him. Makes perfect sense. Hopefully you get as much reward from it as he does.
I think MME's response and wife are perfect examples of what I think wives should do as well as probably how us guys should handle this. MME was honest with his wife about his fantasy and rather than try to shut it down his wife embraced it and took advantage of it. She could have been hurt that he wants to see her loose or offended that this was his thing at all. Instead she recognized that this is a harmless obsession and takes advantage of this to have a better married sex life with her husband who she loves and who apparently loves her. If she is telling him a story, is she hurt any more by loosing or by winning? No! Of course not. That is the great thing about stories... nobody is hurt. In fact I suspect she wins every time.
And MME, I would say you shouldn't be ashamed that you would like to see your wife loose. It is your fantasy. Really can't control what your thing is. I don't think that necessarily is a bad thing. Now if you would want to see her severely beaten or something, probably want to rethink it a bit. But I think there is a kind of damsel in distress side to this fantasy for many of us. At least you are smart enough to just come out and say it.
I have the same or very similar fantasies as our friend MME. I LOVE to watch two women sensually fight, wrestle, battle, where one woman dominates the other with her body, breast smothering, butt smothering and particularly foot smothering. I always wanted to watch a beautiful, sexy, toned woman dominate my wife. I don't want to see blood, or see her hurt, just dominated in a sensual way. I talked to my wife about this for years, and she wasn't into it at all, in any way, whether she won or lost, she didn't want to even try. I TALKED TO MY FRIEND AND HIS SEXY WIFE NANCY ABOUT IT, AND SHE WAS INTRIGUED. She had taken a few years of KARATE, and KICK BOXING, more for fitness and staying in shape than anything else. She is 2 inches taller than my wife, and about 10 pounds lighter, at around 135. NANCY also knew that her husband, who is my very good friend, and I, have female foot fetishes, or female foot partialization, and we both love her feet. So, many years ago, one night, we are hanging around their house drinking, relaxing, and it so happened that it was a hot day, and we were all dressed in shorts, t-shirts, and barefoot. One thing led to another, and of course the whole fighting wife fantasy came up. Long story short, NANCY was finally able to talk my wife into it. They decided to try it in NANCY's KING SIZE bed, with us, the two guys watching from the sides of the bed. NANCY dominated my wife very easily, she was more fit, toned, stronger, and had some fight training. It was much more playfull at first, with them rolling on the bed. They grabbed at each other, and they were laughing early on. Then it got more competitive, and NANCY took charge. She knew how much the two husbands loved female feet, so, she got on top of my wife, sat on her, grabbed her wrists, and started to foot smother her, in front of us, with her sexy feet! Her bare feet alternated all over my wife's face! My wife started to buck, yell, scream, and even cry! NANCY LOVED making her smell her stinky feet! She then made her kiss them and lick them, which my wife reluctantly did! NANCY was so excited and turned on, and so were her husband and I. MY WIFE, HOWEVER HATED IT! WAS SO ANGRY WITH ALL OF US. I made it up to her, with the best sex we ever had for weeks after, but, she was still so pissed and annoyed. She never wanted to fight or wrestle again, ever! NANCY, LOVED IT SO MUCH! She started finding other women to wrestle and fight with for years, and years after. SHE LOVED TURNING HER HUSBAND AND I ON SO MUCH ALSO! This really gave her and her husbands sex life such a great boost. They loved her matches, and talking about them after. She LOVED smothering these various women with her breasts, her sexy butt and her gorgeous feet! My friend doesn't care if she wins or loses, he just loves there to be plenty of sexy bare foot action. I have been lucky enough to see many of her sexy battles, and I LOVE when she forces the other woman to kiss, smell, lick, worship her feet.....the same gorgeous feet that dominated my wife! So, this is a tale of two couples, one couple embraced the fighting and foot fetish, the other couple....my wife and I, NO! I did get lucky in the sense that both NANCY and her husband allowed me to participate in, and watch, many of her matches. So, I got to ULTIMATELY win too. I then go home to my wife, with Nancy'S FIGHT IN MY HEAD, AND IT HELPS MY SEX LIFE TREMENDOUSLY TOO!!!